Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:06 pm
Added Vanax. Will work on adding some quantitative toughness (ft-lbs) ratings next.
Spyderco Forums
Knife Steel EDC Performance Rankings
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Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:32 pm
I enjoy Larrin's scientific approach much more than compilations of hearsay, random suppositions and second hand data poorly strung together. Weird thread.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:15 pm
Is the guy a troll? Weird to group 440c, 420hc, and then D2 together as "poor." Earlier he had ZDP-189 with H1 as "poor."
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:33 pm
I think he's just a guy who got too excited reading a bunch of different stuff on the internet and tried to compile his own rankings based on all the other stuff he'd seen out there. 31 edits later, he's still modifying his list based on the discussion here and other sources, which is good.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:38 pm
I think he's just a burgeoning steel junkie. :)
I was a little the same way when I first joined, wanting lists and rankings. I learned later that it's a lot more complicated than a simple list.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:39 pm
It is kinda a weird list, but I don’t think we need to alienate or ostracize; better if we could have profitable discussions and incorporate a new member into our forum.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 am
If a manufacturer lists KV/Ku (J), is that indicative of the finished product or is it measured before it has been heat treated like Brinell hardness?
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:39 am
Perhaps if you linked to the datasheet you are trying to interpret someone could help you better.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 amIf a manufacturer lists KV/Ku (J), is that indicative of the finished product or is it measured before it has been heat treated like Brinell hardness?
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:51 am
I'm all for productive conversation, but this OP is misleading and presents what seems to be mostly opinion based rankings that some steel newby might interpret as fact. As Sal has often reminded us, steels are all good, just different. There is no "best" steel and any attempt to declare one (or declare others poor) is just an opinion. It's like trying to proclaim 1 car the best performing vehicle. What are you doing with that vehicle? Hauling rocks, racing, taking kids to the pool? It's an opinion as is this original post.JonLeBlanc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:39 pmIt is kinda a weird list, but I don’t think we need to alienate or ostracize; better if we could have profitable discussions and incorporate a new member into our forum.
It also appears that rather than present a finished product, we have a much changed (31 times in it's short existence) rough draft of a list.Rather than proclaiming winners, an open discussion on steel qualities might be more useful.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:55 am
I just ordered three more Ganzo knives, two in 440C and one in D2, and the order before that was a CJRB Feldspar (small) in D2. I know they won't perform as well for EDC compared to other steel if I were to push them to the extreme (generally I don't), but they are still steel and do the job (especially for my casual use). For example, other steels will perform better in different areas like cutting longer before going dull. I can recognize that without only being limited to the excellent performers. That being said, I think my next purchase will be an American Lawman, because I don't have one yet, which happens to come in an excellent steel, S35VN.The Meat man wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:38 pmI think he's just a burgeoning steel junkie. :)
I was a little the same way when I first joined, wanting lists and rankings. I learned later that it's a lot more complicated than a simple list.
Is this any good?Larrin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:39 amPerhaps if you linked to the datasheet you are trying to interpret someone could help you better.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 amIf a manufacturer lists KV/Ku (J), is that indicative of the finished product or is it measured before it has been heat treated like Brinell hardness?
EDIT: Actually, I just remembered I ordered a TRM Neutron after the Feldspar. Oh well, my point still stands.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:33 am
That data is not for H1 steel.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:55 amIs this any good?Larrin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:39 amPerhaps if you linked to the datasheet you are trying to interpret someone could help you better.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 amIf a manufacturer lists KV/Ku (J), is that indicative of the finished product or is it measured before it has been heat treated like Brinell hardness?
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am
I thought it was weird they had two H1s listed. Is the other one accurate?Larrin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:33 amThat data is not for H1 steel.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:55 amIs this any good?Larrin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:39 amPerhaps if you linked to the datasheet you are trying to interpret someone could help you better.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 amIf a manufacturer lists KV/Ku (J), is that indicative of the finished product or is it measured before it has been heat treated like Brinell hardness?
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:45 am
No. Those are carbide materials.Trinity300 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 amI thought it was weird they had two H1s listed. Is the other one accurate?
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:49 am
Well, one source crossed off then. PMing some other sources to keep the forum less cluttered.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:11 am
You can get the data sheet off the manufacturers website. That's the primary source for the information. You just go to the actual maker of the steel.
Examples:
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... 202010.pdf
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... v12010.pdf
https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeh ... nglish.pdf
https://www.materials.sandvik/en/materi ... el/14c28n/
Actually, if you wanted your list to be more useful to more people, direct links to the data sheets for each steel would be a good thing to add. You can just find and link to the actual manufacturer data on their own web site. So you want the sites of the actual steel manufacturers, like Bohler, Hitachi, Crucible, Sandvik. etc.
Be warned that this project has pretty much already been "won" by Z knives. He even has a smartphone app for quick reference (https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... b&hl=en_US). There are always gaps to be filled, though.
Examples:
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... 202010.pdf
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... v12010.pdf
https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeh ... nglish.pdf
https://www.materials.sandvik/en/materi ... el/14c28n/
Actually, if you wanted your list to be more useful to more people, direct links to the data sheets for each steel would be a good thing to add. You can just find and link to the actual manufacturer data on their own web site. So you want the sites of the actual steel manufacturers, like Bohler, Hitachi, Crucible, Sandvik. etc.
Be warned that this project has pretty much already been "won" by Z knives. He even has a smartphone app for quick reference (https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... b&hl=en_US). There are always gaps to be filled, though.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:20 am
I could not agree more. This thread really does abuse the hard work of others here, both scientists and makers. The thread is pathetic.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:30 am
I have been using those mainly. I am just looking to fill the holes. Most data sheets don't list CATRA TCC results and some don't list Charpy impact test results. One problem I found is I can't directly compare the impact results because they are not standardized. Crucible uses a a full size C-notch specimen. Larrin said he uses a 1/4 size unnotched. Zapp uses 12.7mm notch radius. Carpenter uses a standard V-notch.TomAiello wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:11 amYou can get the data sheet off the manufacturers website. That's the primary source for the information. You just go to the actual maker of the steel.
Examples:
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... 202010.pdf
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... v12010.pdf
https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeh ... nglish.pdf
Actually, if you wanted your list to be more useful to more people, direct links to the data sheets for each steel would be a good thing to add. You can just find and link to the actual manufacturer data on their own web site. So you want the sites of the actual steel manufacturers, like Bohler, Hitachi, Crucible, etc.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:14 am
I get the impression Trinity300 is a burgeoning steel junkie / knife knut and I think a lot of us can relate.
Over time (decades for some of us :)
) those of us that have been seriously perusing this type of knowledge have realized that the information available on-line tends to be more misleading than not. Through working directly with metallurgists and project engineers and doing my own testing it's also become apparent that even the manufacturer data sheets can be misleading and usually incomplete. Additionally, the ability to discern differences in steel can be almost entirely muted by heat treat and geometry variations when using various finished knives for comparison.
I applaud Trinity300's enthusiasm and I appreciate anyone that is interested in learning more about knives and knife steels.
I would enthusiastically encourage Trinity300 to look deeply into the unprecedented work recently completed by Larrin and Shawn (Deadboxhero). It is by far and away the best and most complete source for knife steel comparison information available today. One aspect that makes Larrin's data set different, more accurate and more informative is the fact that the very large comparison group was done with exactly equal geometry samples and other necessary tight controls that ensure the comparison data is truly comparable. This is very different and far more informative than comparing purchased knives of various steels. The testing was a huge undertaking performed by a metallurgist with help from an extremely dedicated custom knife maker and we're all fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit and learn from it.
I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with making a list of favorites and it doesn't really matter what a person's criteria might be. But, ranking steel qualities from one steel to the next can only really be done by removing the geometry and H/T variables. Anyone with a deep interest in these things should consider becoming a member of Knife Steel Nerds on Patreon and get all the information Larrin is providing.
CK
Over time (decades for some of us :)
) those of us that have been seriously perusing this type of knowledge have realized that the information available on-line tends to be more misleading than not. Through working directly with metallurgists and project engineers and doing my own testing it's also become apparent that even the manufacturer data sheets can be misleading and usually incomplete. Additionally, the ability to discern differences in steel can be almost entirely muted by heat treat and geometry variations when using various finished knives for comparison. I applaud Trinity300's enthusiasm and I appreciate anyone that is interested in learning more about knives and knife steels.
I would enthusiastically encourage Trinity300 to look deeply into the unprecedented work recently completed by Larrin and Shawn (Deadboxhero). It is by far and away the best and most complete source for knife steel comparison information available today. One aspect that makes Larrin's data set different, more accurate and more informative is the fact that the very large comparison group was done with exactly equal geometry samples and other necessary tight controls that ensure the comparison data is truly comparable. This is very different and far more informative than comparing purchased knives of various steels. The testing was a huge undertaking performed by a metallurgist with help from an extremely dedicated custom knife maker and we're all fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit and learn from it.
I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with making a list of favorites and it doesn't really matter what a person's criteria might be. But, ranking steel qualities from one steel to the next can only really be done by removing the geometry and H/T variables. Anyone with a deep interest in these things should consider becoming a member of Knife Steel Nerds on Patreon and get all the information Larrin is providing.
CK
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:41 am
Inherently better? No. But better suited to a certain task? Yes. That's one reason so many different steels exist.VooDooChild wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:06 pmReally its all good. Makes sense the most balanced steels might come out on top. But I wont call them better.
Haha, I was a gun nut... I guess I still am (anyone who has an FFL probably is), but I don't feel compelled to collect a bunch anymore. I scaled down, and I try not to keep more than a couple for a specific purpose at this time: EDC, hunting, home defense, etc (I figure it's good to have a back upXplorer wrote: I get the impression Trinity300 is a burgeoning steel junkie / knife knut and I think a lot of us can relate.
Over time (decades for some of us :)
I applaud Trinity300's enthusiasm and I appreciate anyone that is interested in learning more about knives and knife steels.
I would enthusiastically encourage Trinity300 to look deeply into the unprecedented work recently completed by Larrin and Shawn (Deadboxhero). It is by far and away the best and most complete source for knife steel comparison information available today. One aspect that makes Larrin's data set different, more accurate and more informative is the fact that the very large comparison group was done with exactly equal geometry samples and other necessary tight controls that ensure the comparison data is truly comparable. This is very different and far more informative than comparing purchased knives of various steels. The testing was a huge undertaking performed by a metallurgist with help from an extremely dedicated custom knife maker and we're all fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit and learn from it.
I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with making a list of favorites and it doesn't really matter what a person's criteria might be. But, ranking steel qualities from one steel to the next can only really be done by removing the geometry and H/T variables. Anyone with a deep interest in these things should consider becoming a member of Knife Steel Nerds on Patreon and get all the information Larrin is providing.
CK
). I realized knives are so much cheaper to collect so that's how that began :DI agree that Larrin has the highest sample set I have seen while keeping most of the variables constant, which is perfect for comparison purposes. I'll probably end up just using his Charpy impact chart to estimate the toughness for a lot of these steels (no table available). Hardness and geometry have a big impact. A manufacturer can definitely max out a steel's potential to what they want, by changing them. If Crucible lists three different CATRA results at three different HRcs, I pick the middle one to use as a generalization.
Re: Performance Rankings: Knife Steels
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:58 pm
It's Larrin.