Spyderco Forums

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:45 am**

Maybe the waved Matriarch 2 would be a closer comparison (though the Matriarch is 1/2 inch shorter). It has most of the same improvements. Though thumb ramp jimping is intentionally left off of Spyderco defensive knives.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:31 am**

Hi PHP,

By debate, do you mean two close minded people yelling at each other? Sorry, no. I might be interested in a dialogue.

When the knife comes out we'll need to get 3. We lose one in analyzing the steel. Need to make sure it is actually Carpenter's CTS XHP. Whether XHP is "better" that VG-10 is in itself arguable. We also lose one in the breaking. Our breaking machine will give us a CP printout of the break, with graphs and Hi-Rez micro photography to study the break. We'd Rc the piece to make sure it's as hard as claimed. We'd put one on the CATRA to see how well it cuts and how long it cuts. Then we'd study the design and construction. Is the blade centered? How is the knife finished? Ease of opening? Ease of closing? Ease of resharpening? Does the clip work well for deployment and return? Are there any "hot spots" in prolonged use? etc. etc.

The Civilian has been around for almost 30 years. Quite a feat for a design. Does Cold Steel have any designs that have been around and selling for that long?

It seems that your claims are based on a picture, a sales pitch and what you like. I'm a bit harder to convince.

sal

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:50 am**

IF it aint broke, dont fix it ! My opinion = Not broke :)

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:03 am**

PHP87 wrote:
Second, one doesn't have to own either or both knives to make a valid comparison.

Without actually having hands on experience one is guessing and basing their opinion on marketing and pictures.

That's fine for some people I suppose, but for me I have to have hands on before I can have an opinion.

I don't buy into marketing or what it says on spec sheets, now it might get my attention, but in the end I have to actually test it to form any kind of real opinion based on real observations and testing.

PHP87 wrote: I've outlined the improvements of the CS BT II like the Tri-Ad lock, thumb plate vs. bird's eye opening, deeper, more ergonomic finger grooves (Not to mention safer) Ambidextrous clip, better steel, Dual Liners, Thumb Jimping and the lower price.

These are all FACTS that can be seen or read in the spec sheet.

You outlined your opinions based on pictures and looking at the spec sheet nothing more than that.

Until you have had the knives in hand and used them you really don't know how they feel, work, cut, open and close etc.

How does the knife fit your hand?

Is it comfortable in actual use?

How is the balance?

How does it carry in pocket?

What about deployment, how does that work?

What about the quality and fit and finish?

How does the steel work based on your use?

How is it to resharpen based on what you use to sharpen with?

Over time in use how does the knife hold up?

These are things that just can't be answered from looking at a picture and a spec sheet.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:08 am**

VG 10 and XHP look very similar to me

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:36 pm**

sal wrote:Hi PHP,

By debate, do you mean two close minded people yelling at each other? Sorry, no. I might be interested in a dialogue.

When the knife comes out we'll need to get 3. We lose one in analyzing the steel. Need to make sure it is actually Carpenter's CTS XHP. Whether XHP is "better" that VG-10 is in itself arguable. We also lose one in the breaking. Our breaking machine will give us a CP printout of the break, with graphs and Hi-Rez micro photography to study the break. We'd Rc the piece to make sure it's as hard as claimed. We'd put one on the CATRA to see how well it cuts and how long it cuts. Then we'd study the design and construction. Is the blade centered? How is the knife finished? Ease of opening? Ease of closing? Ease of resharpening? Does the clip work well for deployment and return? Are there any "hot spots" in prolonged use? etc. etc.

The Civilian has been around for almost 30 years. Quite a feat for a design. Does Cold Steel have any designs that have been around and selling for that long?

It seems that your claims are based on a picture, a sales pitch and what you like. I'm a bit harder to convince.

sal

Who is yelling at each other?

I'm sure the steel has been analyzed and I'm quite sure CS isn't substituting a lesser steel for CTS XHP. (Did you just accuse CS of NOT using CTS-XHP in the BT II?) I'm also sure the hardness number has been measured and is fairly consistent across the board, as steel manufacturing has some minor deviations, but is usually quite consistent.

And there is no debate that CTS XHP is a better steel than VG-10 although on a knife like this, 440C would be fine as this is not a utility knife - it's a knife designed for one purpose. Self Defense.

I've never bought a knife from any major manufacturer with an off-center blade, and a knife with 4" of steel will open easily due to the mass of steel.
Most knives arrive "stiff" from the factory. Loosening the pivot, finding the sweet spot then applying some Blue Loc-Tite is what most people do, along with applying a quality lubricant to the pivot/bearings if they don't want to bother with "breaking in" a folder.

These are all non-starters.

If the Civilian has been around for 30 years, why no improvements like a deeper finger groove? I'd hate to have the blade catch on a strike and have the blade tip snag. Wouldn't be good for my index finger. And no jimping. After 30 years, why not add this simple feature?
While blade steel has been improved, the ergonomics are lacking and it has a "hot spot" from the handle when configured for tip up carry and while I realize that this knife was designed to be hidden in sensitive areas on the person, the handle is way too thin. The single liner is a head-scratcher as well.

Not telling you how to run your business as you've obviously done well, but the Civilian has been in need of a design updgrade for years and it has basically been ignored. So another company took the design and greatly improved upon it.

If you were a knife buyer looking for a SD EDC, which would you buy? Case closed.

And how many knife-buyer's buy a knife based on what they've read and seen without handling the knife? Almost all. That's how many. Another non-starter

Look, I don't care if CS, Spyderco, Kershaw, SOG, Boker or even Frost Cutlery made this knife amd it's in the BUDK catalog - it's obviously a great piece at a reasonable price.

I understand that you want to defend your product, but I hope in your apparent collaboration with CS that you are getting a percentage because CS will sell the BT II will sell a lot them.

Again, apologies if I've been rude, but I'm outspoken and say what I think. Sorry if some are offended by it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:38 pm**

Johnnie1801 wrote:VG 10 and XHP look very similar to me

Screenshot_1.jpg

Seriously?

http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/discove ... ife-steel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:39 pm**

Ankerson wrote:
PHP87 wrote:
Second, one doesn't have to own either or both knives to make a valid comparison.
Without actually having hands on experience one is guessing and basing their opinion on marketing and pictures.

That's fine for some people I suppose, but for me I have to have hands on before I can have an opinion.

I don't buy into marketing or what it says on spec sheets, now it might get my attention, but in the end I have to actually test it to form any kind of real opinion based on real observations and testing.

PHP87 wrote: I've outlined the improvements of the CS BT II like the Tri-Ad lock, thumb plate vs. bird's eye opening, deeper, more ergonomic finger grooves (Not to mention safer) Ambidextrous clip, better steel, Dual Liners, Thumb Jimping and the lower price.

These are all FACTS that can be seen or read in the spec sheet.

You outlined your opinions based on pictures and looking at the spec sheet nothing more than that.

Until you have had the knives in hand and used them you really don't know how they feel, work, cut, open and close etc.

How does the knife fit your hand?

Is it comfortable in actual use?

How is the balance?

How does it carry in pocket?

What about deployment, how does that work?

What about the quality and fit and finish?

How does the steel work based on your use?

How is it to resharpen based on what you use to sharpen with?

Over time in use how does the knife hold up?

These are things that just can't be answered from looking at a picture and a spec sheet.

So every knife purchase you have made has been hands on and not based on specs or reviews and purchased via mail?

Got it.

All I've heard so far are people twisting themselves into pretzels attempting to rationalize why the BT II might not be a good/great knife based on speculation that is not consistent with CS products.

I can only imagine the nit-picking once the knife hits the market next month by its critics and why the Civi is still better.

Like I said, it's one thing to be loyal to a brand, but blind loyalty isn't a good thing.

And again, competition benefits everyone.

I would guarantee that 9/10 non Spyderco fan boys would buy the BT II once they have handled both knives, even if the cost were the same.

A final point - the Civilian's ergonomics were designed for deep concealment and not ergonomics. Frankly, the ergonomics on the Civi are lacking, to put it kindly. And why would someone resharpen an SD blade? This is a knife that will be used for one purpose, thus will not need resharpening unless used for its intended purposed. Another false argument. How does it hold up in time over use? Again, another false argument. It's a SD knife, not a EDC that will be used for a variety of cutting purposes.
Balance hasn't been an issue on any name-brand knife I've owned, so I don't expect CS to start having issues with balance as I own 5 of their knives and all are superbly balanced. Your arguments are all non-starters.

And I've never had a fit/finish issue with any CS knife, although I can't say the same for the Byrd Hawkbill I just purchased.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:24 pm**

EDITED - Unnecessary and not productive.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:04 pm**

sal wrote:Hi PHP,

Do you know where Lynn is making his knives?

sal

Mostly Taiwan, and from what I've handled with much lower F&F than Spydercos. (The Tri-Ad I handled was awfully gritty with stick and had been used but was worse than a Spyderco backlock new from factory. I would like to compare a Power lock in daily use and carry vs a Tri-Ad over a few months but it's a little costly for me to get a Tatanka at the moment.

I thank you for your contributions to this thread, Mr. Glesser, I greatly appreciate it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:28 pm**

Trevitrace wrote:EDITED

What does your red-herring have to do with the discussion at hand?

Other than desperately trying to disparage Cold Steel.

And for the record, a large majority of members of various CS forums think this lawsuit is a bad idea and reflects poorly on Lynn, not their products.

You've done nothing but waste your time and mine.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:30 pm**

PHP87 wrote:
Trevitrace wrote:EDITED
What does your red-herring have to do with the discussion at hand?

Other than desperately trying to disparage Cold Steel.

And for the record, a large majority of members of various CS forums think this lawsuit is a bad idea and reflects poorly on Lynn, not their products.

You've done nothing but waste your time and mine with a personal attack in an attempt to make some kind of feeble point.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:39 pm**

Surfingringo wrote:Heres a rooster fish I caught yesterday. :)

Lance, do those make for good eatin' ?

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:01 pm**

Trevitrace wrote:EDITED

This has nothing to do with the topic and it seriously against the rules of the forum to not insult or degrade other people including other knife manufacturers.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:05 pm**

sal wrote:[...]
It seems that your claims are based on a picture, a sales pitch and what you like. I'm a bit harder to convince.

Sal this isn't at all accurate or fair and completely misrepresents his position. He has detailed his argument for why he considers the CS product to be a superior knife and it isn't just a picture and a sales pitch. As just one example he has extensive experience with the Tri-Ad lock and he values that over the lock that you use on the Spyderco knife in question. This isn't a decision made "based on a picture".

However it is also completely false to imply that you can't make inferences from pictures, are you really going to say that for example someone looking for a fillet knife can't just look at this picture and know it is not suitable :

Of course they can and so it is completely false to say that inferences can't be made from specifications and pictures, obviously they can and people do it all the time. The question is what exactly is being inferred and can that he known from a picture, but the general assertion that all such conclusions are false is completely untrue.

Now if you want to argue that the points he made can not be justified from a picture that is fine, but the general dismissal certainly is not at all valid.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:08 pm**

PHP87 wrote:
The Tri-Ad is anything but "heavy" along with slow and clumsy.

It takes no more effort to close a Tri-Ad than the mid-lock or any other lock back for that matter.

I only have two but they require significantly more force to close than a typicaly Spyderco backlock. This is in fact a pretty common complaint about the locks and you can find videos were people even bend the tension bars to make them easier to manipulate.

In regards to being a "better steel", CTS-XHP isn't better than VG-10 in the general sense because that is like saying a bench press is a better exercise than a deadlift, it depends on what you are trying to do.

However, given that most people tend to argue that better = higher wear resistance then that would be likely true, but if that isn't what you value in a steel then VG-10 could be the better choice.

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:32 pm**

Cliff Stamp wrote:
PHP87 wrote:
The Tri-Ad is anything but "heavy" along with slow and clumsy.

It takes no more effort to close a Tri-Ad than the mid-lock or any other lock back for that matter.

I only have two but they require significantly more force to close than a typicaly Spyderco backlock. This is in fact a pretty common complaint about the locks and you can find videos were people even bend the tension bars to make them easier to manipulate.

In regards to being a "better steel", CTS-XHP isn't better than VG-10 in the general sense because that is like saying a bench press is a better exercise than a deadlift, it depends on what you are trying to do.

However, given that most people tend to argue that better = higher wear resistance then that would be likely true, but if that isn't what you value in a steel then VG-10 could be the better choice.

http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/discove ... ife-steel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CTS-XHP > VG10

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:36 pm**

Withdrawn... :)

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:45 pm**

PHP87 wrote: http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/discove ... ife-steel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not sure what that is supposed to justify, it is a big bunch of assertions with no empirical support.

Do you want to get into Carbon content as well?

Before you jump to elemental analysis, why not start off with describing how you are evaluating steels in order to know what better means. To be specific what are the material properties of CTS-XHP which are higher than VG-10?

Posted: **Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:03 pm**

Cliff Stamp wrote:
PHP87 wrote: http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/discove ... ife-steel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not sure what that is supposed to justify, it is a big bunch of assertions with no empirical support.

Do you want to get into Carbon content as well?
Before you jump to elemental analysis, why not start off with describing how you are evaluating steels in order to know what better means. To be specific what are the material properties of CTS-XHP which are higher than VG-10?

Spyderco is planning on using CTS-XHP in their Manix 2 knives.

I'm not an expert in metallurgy, but it doesn't take and expert in steel composition to conduct research and come to the inescapable conclusion that CTS-XHP is a superior steel over VG-10

Perhaps you should do some research yourself.

Again, it's one thing to be brand loyal. It's another to be blindly loyal.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like I said, you could put these two knives side by side and the Spyderco fan boys would pick apart the BT and swear up and down the Civi is superior, even at the higher price. I thought the iPhone fan boys were blind fanatics...

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