Spyderco Tomahawk?

[clovisc]

how about the axe in the middle?

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[skunk_2]

Hi Skunk_2,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum. sal

:eek: star struck? haha

thanks sal, ive been lurking the forums for a about 2 years, but im a huge axe fan, so i had to make a post about it!

[defenestrate]

how about the axe in the middle?

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Nah, I think CS already has the rights to that design.

How about these?

[Ookami]

I don't think this is the input Sal was looking for ... :rolleyes:

One thing that is important in the design of an axe* is the sweet spot. For a general purpose design this means the middle of the edge.

Because the axe describes an arc during chopping, the edge must not be parallel to the handle but parallel to a line that runs from the sweet spot to the butt of the handle. So the edge has to be canted towards the butt of the handle. See Figure A.

The edge can even be more acutely canted for a "draw cut" effect. The "draw cut" is a mix of push cutting and slicing. Chopping is a kind of push cutting, however, if the edge is presented at an angle the cutting power will increase (IIRC by 40%), that's why cigar-cutters and guillotines have an oblique blade. See Figure B.
More explanation on draw cuts can be found here:
http://outdoors.magazine.free.fr/spip.php?article300
http://outdoors.magazine.free.fr/spip.php?article11

The edge must not be canted towards the top as this can lead to accidents. During a careless strike one may hit short causing the edge to slide off the tree and come back towards the user. :eek:

A favorite design of mine is the Francesca. See Figure C. It combines draw cut capabilities with good sticking potential when thrown. The upsweep on the top allows the Francesca to stick when other axes have already overrotated. See Figure D.

@sal: It would also help if you have any questions.


Ookami

*I am using axe here, but the same goes for tomahawks.

[Blue72]

While a tactical hawk wasn't the goal, I try to be open minded. What we were originally seeking was a relatively small outdoor hawk that served a variety of cutting functions bu optimised size, material and shape.

I think you should stick with your original goals. The biggest problems with the tomahawks on the market right now is they don't do outdoor chopping well.

[sixheads]

I think you should stick with your original goals. The biggest problems with the tomahawks on the market right now is they don't do outdoor chopping well.

Agreed, then i could get my rock salt and have a good sized easy to carry light wieght chopper. When you think about it Knives and tomahawks are messy weapons and not realistic unless trained And i think that most of the average joes are not trained.

I want practical real worl use. Like choppin up fire wood. Diggina small hole etc etc.

Cant wait to see it regardless.

Sixheads

[chipped]

What are the strengths of a tomahawk vs. machete vs. a khukhri?

I think this is a great idea, I'm just curious about why Spyderco is thinking in this direction when in the past it did not seem to with designs that would have seemed to lend themselves to that. Many people seem to think that the Rock Salt is too small for chopping so maybe a bigger version would have a niche, and the Spyderco khukri is also different from the large chopping size that style is famous for.

Would it be better to cover those areas first, or maybe not at all? The construction of these tools is so vastly different from pocket knives.

I have very little experience with or knowledge of these tools and am genuinely curious (been drooling over the RAT and Himalayan Imports subforums on Bladeforums) about what people think is useful and for what things.

If the goal so far is "lightweight backpackable chopper" why would you want this over a machete or khukri? Would you want to see a Spyderco machete as well, or more than a tomahawk? How about a bigger Rock Salt?

It seems half the responses in this thread are asking for a high-tech high-performance cutter, and the others for an innovative and versatile tool (love the H1 idea). And then of course there was the multiple heads idea. It doesn't seem there's a way to do all of this without a whole line of axes, and it looks like they're already planning at least two (folding and fixed).

To me personally, the "versatile multi-use" idea (especially in H1) seems like a better idea because I can't imagine needing to do a lot of chopping on a regular basis in the woods. I don't usually build a log cabin and stockpile a winter's worth of firewood when I go camping, so I think a big knife that can do other things as well would be more useful to me in that situation, but having an axe designed like the Assist in the trunk of a car or in an emergency kit seems like a great idea. If I'm going to leave it in the garage to chop at home, then I'll either buy a regular axe or a chainsaw.

Maybe the folding design could lean one way and the fixed another?

What do you guys want in a chopper?

[Blerv]

As mentioned the current tactical hawks don't cut wood very well. The camp axes while sharp enough to shave typically are very old fashioned. All companies that I have seen have a fairly slim selection of high-carbon tool/spring steels and very high prices.

Regarding tactical hawks the ATC Lagana is one of the better ones if money is considered. However, for a coated head of 1095 the axe is still about $140! The Gransfors Bruks mini camp axe is about the same price and while basically a custom is another high carbon head on a wood handle.

It's exciting Spyderco is considering the opportunity because I don't see another company of their caliber in the axe industry (as a non-custom level company like RMJ). With their designs, manufacturers and access to exotic supplies I think the world is in for a serious ride. :D

[Koen Z]

Hmm, an Tomahawk from Spyderco? interesting.

But I cannot think of a modern tomahawk or axe without thinking about the modern Fiskars axes. These are exceptionally well made, coated toolsteel at a good hardness, very tough handle... I don't know how Spyderco can improve this tools.



Sorry, I don't advertise for Fiskars, but these are the the best modern axes available in my opinion, at a fair price. Again, how can Spyderco inprove this tools?

[Blue72]

Sorry, I don't advertise for Fiskars, but these are the the best modern axes available in my opinion, at a fair price. Again, how can Spyderco inprove this tools?

The problem with a fiskars axe is that it is heavy to carry around. If spyderco can make a lightweight tomahawk that can actually chop. It will be very attractive to many outdoor enthusiasts. Especially those who like to pack as light as possible.

[Blerv]

Hmm, an Tomahawk from Spyderco? interesting.

But I cannot think of a modern tomahawk or axe without thinking about the modern Fiskars axes. These are exceptionally well made, coated toolsteel at a good hardness, very tough handle... I don't know how Spyderco can improve this tools.



Sorry, I don't advertise for Fiskars, but these are the the best modern axes available in my opinion, at a fair price. Again, how can Spyderco inprove this tools?

That is very true.

However, I think the modern pocket knife world said that before the clip, round hole, and decent serrations. :)

[clovisc]

okay -- ridiculous black metal photos aside (i love black metal... the more ridiculous, the better!).

I actually carried and appreciated a small hand axe quite a bit in zambia. it was small, but handled most of my chopping tasks. i also did SD training with it, and had created a a kung fu form that I used to practice with it (which I'm afraid I've forgotten... I think I have it written down somewhere). It was a handy tool, both for EDC tasks around the hut, and walks in the bush...

I can imagine a small axe being hugely useful up here in SE AK... for hunting, fishing, hiking, and emergency use.

here's what i'd like to see...

a tomahawk / small axe that can:

-- cut down saplings and even small trees without too much trouble
-- outperform a machete (like my CS kukhri, for example) at chopping tasks
-- has a hammer on the side opposite the blade, for hammering nails, and knocking coho and chinook salmon out cold
-- is capable of busting up wooden pallets for bonfires
-- can be carried SAFELY (needs some kind of foolproof cover) on the side, or inside, a backpack. i don't want to worry about slipping and falling on it, or it harming other items that are packed up with it
-- can be used as an ulu
-- H1 would make for the most incredible survival axe EVER (a year ago, someone suggested the name "sasquaxe" -- ha!)
-- has SD capabilities, and could be used for the sort of training doc snubnose is describing... although i agree that chopping and functionality as an actual axe is extremely important. still, i want to be able to transform into daniel day lewis in "last of the mohicans" in case i'm attacked by zombie french colonial forces, or were-bears.
-- comfy, with good ergos

i'd be very, very, very excited to put a spydie axe to the test!

i'm way overdue for buying a small axe for use up here... i've looked at some of the gransfors stuff, and even the CS tomahawks, for a while now...

[Dr. Snubnose]

I think Sal is talking more the size of a hand axe (hatchet). Though these could be used for SD in the techniques I described earlier, the small handle lenght would not be the best choice for this application...18"-22" gives you a different reach when engaged in combat and can be shortened in hand for a variety of different reasons and techniques. A small handled Hawk would not work the best with all the techniques I described, making a small hawk less appealing for me as a SD tool.....Doc :D

[Ookami]

That's right. The handle should not be too short. Not only does a long handle give you more reach in SD, it also helps to generate power when chopping wood. Some small hatchets are pretty useless for the very same reason.

To me that is part of the appeal of a tomahawk. You can put quite some power into the swing despite the small, light head.


Ookami

[Dr. Snubnose]

That's right. The handle should not be too short. Not only does a long handle give you more reach in SD, it also helps to generate power when chopping wood. Some small hatchets are pretty useless for the very same reason.

To me that is part of the appeal of a tomahawk. You can put quite some power into the swing despite the small, light head.


Ookami

Now if Spyderco were to make a hawk with 18-22" Handle, and not a hand hatchet, then it might very welll double as a defensive tool...now that would peek my interest once again..... now that Ookami would be something I'd want with me on my hike up the hill to Giebichenstein Castle.....Doc :D [/QUOTE]

[Ookami]

... something I'd want with me on my hike up the hill to Giebichenstein Castle.

I hope your German is good enough to explain why you are carrying a tomahawk in the city should you meet a police officer. :D Giebichenstein Castle is on a rather small hill and it is well within the city as you can see here: (google maps link). It is not really a hike, too. As with the Moritzburg you can just use the tram. :p

If you want to come over, there are lots of castles and sights around Halle which lend themselves to hiking. Other castles I've been to in other states eg. K?nigstein Fortress in Saxony and Wartburg Castle in Thuringia are also well suited to hikers since they are on large hills and actually in the woods.

ANYWAY, if the Spyderco hawk came with replaceable handles, and I'd suggest it does, you could have spare handles in different sizes. It should also be possible to order them according to your liking. Instead of plain or Spyderedge you can then choose between short or long handle.


Ookami

[Blerv]

...if the Spyderco hawk came with replaceable handles, and I'd suggest it does, you could have spare handles in different sizes. It should also be possible to order them according to your liking. Instead of plain or Spyderedge you can then choose between short or long handle.


Ookami

Or another solution is differently weighted heads. Having heads ranging by a couple pounds, steel type, and grind type you could accommodate splitting, chopping, or SD. Obviously a small high hollow ground H1 head would split worse than a heavy carbon blade but it would dance like a fencing foil.

[Ookami]

That would be unreasonable, I'm afraid. Making the head is most likely more costly in manufacture and material.

You can make wooden handles cheaply on a copy lathe or you can injection mold synthetic handles rather easily. Heads have to be forged, ground, hardened, finished, coated, and sharpened.

Also, I don't know whether H1 will make a good steel for a hawk. AFAIK, precipitation hardening steels come from the car industry. Their function is to absorb energy. The more the steel is deformed during a crash the more it resists further deformation. This is the so-called "work hardening".

I don't know whether a steel with these properties is suitable for retaining a sharp edge during chopping. Maybe it would work if you peen the steel... :confused:

In fact, most knife steels are not suitable for axes. So the LaGhana Tomahawk from ATC is not made from 1095, but from 1060. The only way to use knife steels in axes is to forge weld them to an iron head, which is probably too expensive for industrial production. So most quality tomahawks are drop forged with differential heat treatment. The only non-custom tomahawks I know where this method is used are those from Gr?nsfors Bruks, which are semi-custom.


Ookami

PS: Hollow grinds on any chopper are not a good idea.
________
Weed bubblers

[Dr. Snubnose]

My German is pretty good (4 years high school), High school was a long time ago, but I can still stay get me to the train station and do you have any grape juice....and I'm getting too old to want to walk up hill anyway or explain things to Police Officers, I do that all day and they are hard of hearing :p :p :p ...Doc :D

[clovisc]

I think Sal is talking more the size of a hand axe (hatchet). Though these could be used for SD in the techniques I described earlier, the small handle lenght would not be the best choice for this application...18"-22" gives you a different reach when engaged in combat and can be shortened in hand for a variety of different reasons and techniques. A small handled Hawk would not work the best with all the techniques I described, making a small hawk less appealing for me as a SD tool.....Doc :D

18" was about exactly what i had in mind when i said "small axe." :D sounds good to me!