You can slap me around and call me Susan if ya want... but don't you knock VG10 now! :p5.56 wrote:Maybe S35VN should be compared to VG-10 since it's not quite measuring up to S30V. :eek: :D
^^ I kid, I kid
I'll bet a couple of you came unglued for a second though.
I agree. I will be looking forward to see your results after you are done with the Kershaw. I suppose the 550 is thicker than the Native 5, so the results may not be directly comparable. Still, it will be interesting to see.CrimsonTideShooter wrote:Kershaw is being kind enough to send me a brand new ZT 0550 in S35VN to test. That should give us another good data point.
...
Steel like 420HC shouldn't hold it's edge longer than S35VN, no matter how you rationalize it.
That is a great thought, but the problem is that there is no single real life use. Different steels and even the same steel at different hardness and even the same steel at the same hardness cutting different materials are going to lead to different results. Jim and John are saying (properly) that they need consistency, but while their results are very useful and valuable, they don't necessarily predict your "real life" results. Life is messy. :)bchan wrote:To the layman, it's pretty confusing. In future if someone can do a real-life testing/comparison of the steels it would be helpful.
Yah, but "testing" may give an indication of how a steel will perform in "real life". We may be surprised at what happens in our own use, but generally we can say that S30V holds an edge better than 8cr13Mov in most edc chores. When steels perform very closely, that's when cutting media, use, user's skill and etc. become large factors.JNewell wrote:That is a great thought, but the problem is that there is no single real life use. Different steels and even the same steel at different hardness and even the same steel at the same hardness cutting different materials are going to lead to different results. Jim and John are saying (properly) that they need consistency, but while their results are very useful and valuable, they don't necessarily predict your "real life" results. Life is messy. :)
This is true. So, for an average testing material lots of people use cardboard which is very hard on an edge. Even cardboard comes in different qualities and will do different levels of damage to the same blade. I use whittling as my method of comparing blade steel because I have an unlimited amount of small tree limbs to use and not much cardboard. So, if I get certain results from MY known testing material I can get an idea of how that difference will translate to other materials. This is not 100% thorough of course but I don't really need it to be. I have a feeling S30VN is a good steel. Of course MY method means I have to have the steel so getting test results before owning the steel is less trustworthy as you mentioned. We just have to go with what we get AND something like trust. I trust Spyderco to not use a trash steel. If they put it on a knife I'm sure it is good even if it isn't my favorite. Looking at the steel chart I can't imagine S30VN being that much different from S30V. Could be wrong though.JNewell wrote:That is a great thought, but the problem is that there is no single real life use. Different steels and even the same steel at different hardness and even the same steel at the same hardness cutting different materials are going to lead to different results. Jim and John are saying (properly) that they need consistency, but while their results are very useful and valuable, they don't necessarily predict your "real life" results. Life is messy. :)
Good point Jack. I agree that there are some steels Spyderco uses that I don't personally care for, but in some instances it's just my personal preferences and/or impressions rather than a steel's empirical supremacy or shortcomings. But, in the end, if Sal and company choose to use a particular steel in a knife, , , I know they've done their homework and it will perform nicely.jackknifeh wrote: I trust Spyderco to not use a trash steel. If they put it on a knife I'm sure it is good even if it isn't my favorite.
Jack
Very well said SQSAR.SQSAR wrote:Good point Jack. I agree that there are some steels Spyderco uses that I don't personally care for, but in some instances it's just my personal preferences and/or impressions rather than a steel's empirical supremacy or shortcomings. But, in the end, if Sal and company choose to use a particular steel in a knife, , , I know they've done their homework and it will perform nicely.
Chuck: I'm glad you breached the taboo of the commonly heard phrase "all good just different." Personally I think that phrase is way over-used. There might have been steels 100+ years ago that were state of the art, but now are outclassed in performance by today's steels. So to say those outclassed steels are still "good" for knives, might be a bit naive when there are so many that outperform them in about every articuable way. Moving away from that extreme example, I think the phrase becomes a little more appropriate in the present discussion of S30v compared to S35v. I'm not a huge fan of S30v, but I know it’s a good steel for a lot of uses. S35v is a good steel too, but the nuances in the ways it performs are 'different' than S30v. So in this case, I think the phrase "all good just different" applies.
I think that, generally, when a consensus about a steel develops over time, , ,especially within a group of knife enthusiasts, then it's a good indication of a steel's performance. This is especially true as the months pass and individual subjectivities fade, and the true usability of the steel proves itself (or disappoints the knife enthusiast community). For S35v, , ,I'm feeling a sense of mixed results as it's compared to S30v. I think a lot of this is due to the fact that many were expecting it to hit the market and be an appreciable improvement on S30v, but in reality it isn't; and this doesn't for a minute mean it isn't a good steel.
In the end, the lens through which many of us look at steel performance is far more critical than 90% of the knife-using public. And due to this, maybe we get wrapped around the axel a bit too easily when trying to cut hairs (pun intended) about how good and different a steel might be.
That one post he made pretty much mirrored what I said before over on BF.bh49 wrote:I am not a steelnut. As of today VG10 is favorite bladesteel. In the choice of steel I trust Sal. He is the steelnut and the wizard. Also, here Mike Stewart
's thoughts on the object. I believe that he know thing or two about steels as well
http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showt ... V-vs-S35VN
it looks like S35N can become my new favorite steel.
This is it for me SQ. It is one person's experience and it contributes to the totality. I don't dismiss it because so and so said it couldn't happen to his knives. I don't dismiss it because of a possible agenda. I don't dismiss it because such and such material is not to be commonly encountered in "real life".SQSAR wrote:
So, I value the tests some guys post here, and I don’t really care if they weren’t conducted in a lab at M.I.T. because they still help me understand if a steel might be suitable for me (if I haven’t yet tried it) and/or help confirm my own testing of said steel if I have tried it. I say keep the personal evaluations coming because I for one have learned a whole **** of a lot from the work of others.
The Mastiff wrote:I do like steels that perform. Having said that I'll qualify it with my idea feeling that maximum wear resistance isn't always what makes a steel better. I then also realize there are different opinions on what is the most valuable attribute with each knife purchaser.
If the steel makes a person happy but has less abrasive wear resistance than another than they should go with whatever makes them happy.
Lately I've been trying to get the best combination of wear resistance and toughness with very good edge stability. Corrosion resistance isn't really on my list to be honest. That means that I like 52100, O-1 , W2, Super blue, on up to 3V , cruware, M2, and CPM M4 . I honestly like all of these steels better than I do S30V, S60V, and even S90V.
A bunch of people think I'm strange for that but I like what I like. I don't see S35VN having less wear resistance than S30V as any sort of a problem. Edge rolling and such to me is preferable to being chippy but I think it should have done better, and will eventually get there and be at least as good as it's supposed to be edge strength and stability wise.
I don't see any manufacturers betting the farm on S35VN. If it doesn't catch on it will be phased out. If it does, than we will see more.
Acceptance by the end user is what decides what steel will be used ultimately. This whole incident seems sort of blown out of proportion to me. We have people on other forums posting that they regret buying a S35VN knife without having even got it in the mail yet much less tried it out for themselves.
Sure I follow, and watch the forums but I will have to make up my mind. It is interesting that not all makers using it have had complaints. If someone does encounter problems than hopefully they will send the knives back to the manufacturer. I recall how seriously the S30V chipping issue was taken with tests done in QC labs like Spyderco's all the way up to crucibles labs where the steel was forensically evaluated.
We'll see how it turns out but from the performance my mule exhibited I have no problem buying the Native 5 (once I can afford it ) with confidence that if there was a problem Spyderco would make it good until they got whatever was causing it sorted out.
MIL-DOT wrote:Well, ain't this all just peachy :mad: . So,barely 4 days after getting the most expensive knife I've ever owned ( N5), I'm now wondering if a year from now, these will be widely considered a major flop from Spyderco.
I could just wait it out,and hope for the best, or just return it to CS and have them send me one of the knives many of you tried to talk me into in the first place, a Sage or PM2.
Or, I could just say "screw it", and drag it outside, and take one for the team by beating the **** out of it it,doing my own blade test :D .
You shouldn't think that you have any less of a knife than you did before.MIL-DOT wrote:Well, ain't this all just peachy :mad: . So,barely 4 days after getting the most expensive knife I've ever owned ( N5), I'm now wondering if a year from now, these will be widely considered a major flop from Spyderco.
I could just wait it out,and hope for the best, or just return it to CS and have them send me one of the knives many of you tried to talk me into in the first place, a Sage or PM2.
Or, I could just say "screw it", and drag it outside, and take one for the team by beating the **** out of it it,doing my own blade test :D .
+1CrimsonTideShooter wrote:You shouldn't think that you have any less of a knife than you did before.
I'm the one that did the testing, but I still have my S35VN Sebenza in my pocket. If I wasn't keeping the native as it was after testing then it would probably be in my pocket also.
****We are not saying that the steel is crap!****
We are merely stating that at this point it does not perform to the standards of S30V.
MIL-DOT wrote:Well, ain't this all just peachy :mad: . So,barely 4 days after getting the most expensive knife I've ever owned ( N5), I'm now wondering if a year from now, these will be widely considered a major flop from Spyderco.
I could just wait it out,and hope for the best, or just return it to CS and have them send me one of the knives many of you tried to talk me into in the first place, a Sage or PM2.
Or, I could just say "screw it", and drag it outside, and take one for the team by beating the **** out of it it,doing my own blade test :D .
I'd have to agree with jtoler mil-dot. I'm sure you do also, just frustrated at the moment. We all have bought things that were going to be the end all, be all of a given product and been disappointed. What I've done in the past year is sell some of the knives I didn't use much or at all to get money for new ones to try. Some of them were great knives like the blue ZDP Stretch. Great knife but for some reason I don't even know I always grabbed something else for the pocket. So, I'd suggest using the Native5 thoroughly and come up with your own opinion on how you like it. If you end up not caring for it much, sell it and get something else. The thing is you won't know how you feel about the steel until you have used it enough to get your own feelings. I don't have a N5 but do have the regular Native and I really like the design and the N5 is something I think I'd like. As for the steel, I don't have any S35NV so I couldn't say anything about that. Anyway, best of luck with this.jtoler_9 wrote:Hey Mil,
I wouldn't let the debate spoil your appreciation for your N5. You know the knife I use the most is my small Victorinox because it's always on my keychain. I don't even know what steel it is. But I enjoy the heck out of it. My point is if you like the N5 and were excited enough to make it your most expensive knife purchase, then go enjoy it. Turn off everyone else's noise in your head. Steel is always going to change and be debated. If we wait for the perfect steel to present itself before we make a purchase, we will never own any knives.
I am certainly not criticizing the desire to test and validate steel. I think those activities are very helpful. I just think that I would rather spend my time enjoying my purchase rather than worrying if I picked the very best knife in that particular price range. And "best" is certainly in the eye of the beholder.
I would bury it in the backyard like Jumanji and never speak of it again. Better safe than sorry. :)MIL-DOT wrote:Well, ain't this all just peachy :mad: . So,barely 4 days after getting the most expensive knife I've ever owned ( N5), I'm now wondering if a year from now, these will be widely considered a major flop from Spyderco.
