EDC, but no gun?

[2cha]

I'm not willing to make a blanket disparagement of LEOs, but there are good cops and bad cops in probably the same proportion as there are good people and bad people. I am absolutely willing to make disparaging remarks about police departments who let poorly trained people going around carrying guns--it could be my life at stake. Where I live, every little town has its own force. The quality of the leadership of those departments is all over the place. Its up to the leaders to set the policies and tone of the department. One local p.d. even uses (or used, I'm going back 15 years from my first hand experience of this) "auxiliaries" for warrant service and entry work. Absolutely crazy--the guys who wanna be cops, but can't get into an academy set loose in peoples' homes. Completely insane.

Which brings me to my main point: when I decided to own a straight-up weapon as opposed to a sporting arm, I got/am getting some real training. There are 2 NRA trainers in my region: one was a LEO, one a bond enforcement agent. I chose the bond enforcement agent because he could take me first. I'm glad I did. He uses his pistol nearly ever day. His gurus are Massad Ayoob, and some team tactical guy who's name I don't recall. He and his guys drill as team 2x a month. Boy am I learning a lot. Before I ever carry a pistol, or even keep one accessible, I will be a lot more trained than I am now. While I don't have a philosophical problem with shooting someone who's trying to hurt me or mine, I do have major problems with the possibility that I could be the one hurting mine, or some innocent person. I have friends who carry and share this philosophy. On the other hand, and quite scarily, when I lived in Richmond, VA, I knew A LOT of people who carried pistols whose idea of practice was shooting the empties from the case they were drinking,... Now that I'm an "adult" of sorts, the thought scares the **** out of me.

[2cha]

but there are good cops and bad cops in probably the same proportion as there are good people and bad people.

Upon reflection, this is probably an unfair statement. Probably higher proportion of "good" people in the profession. Problem is that because "bad" cops can cause more harm, seems like there are more than there actually are. My bad.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I'm not willing to make a blanket disparagement of LEOs, but there are good cops and bad cops in probably the same proportion as there are good people and bad people. I am absolutely willing to make disparaging remarks about police departments who let poorly trained people going around carrying guns--it could be my life at stake. Where I live, every little town has its own force. The quality of the leadership of those departments is all over the place. Its up to the leaders to set the policies and tone of the department. One local p.d. even uses (or used, I'm going back 15 years from my first hand experience of this) "auxiliaries" for warrant service and entry work. Absolutely crazy--the guys who wanna be cops, but can't get into an academy set loose in peoples' homes. Completely insane.

Which brings me to my main point: when I decided to own a straight-up weapon as opposed to a sporting arm, I got/am getting some real training. There are 2 NRA trainers in my region: one was a LEO, one a bond enforcement agent. I chose the bond enforcement agent because he could take me first. I'm glad I did. He uses his pistol nearly ever day. His gurus are Massad Ayoob, and some team tactical guy who's name I don't recall. He and his guys drill as team 2x a month. Boy am I learning a lot. Before I ever carry a pistol, or even keep one accessible, I will be a lot more trained than I am now. While I don't have a philosophical problem with shooting someone who's trying to hurt me or mine, I do have major problems with the possibility that I could be the one hurting mine, or some innocent person. I have friends who carry and share this philosophy. On the other hand, and quite scarily, when I lived in Richmond, VA, I knew A LOT of people who carried pistols whose idea of practice was shooting the empties from the case they were drinking,... Now that I'm an "adult" of sorts, the thought scares the **** out of me.

2Cha: I can tell you first hand that you made a good choice in your selection of firearms instructor. I'm a NRA certified Law Enforcement and Civilian Firearms Instructor, A retired US Special Agent, and a former owner of a Bail Enforcement Agency. I was responsible for training my Agents in Firearms and Defensive Tactics. We did our training bi-weekly to keep everyone sharp. Home Entries and Room Clearing can be dangerous work and you have to know what you are doing big time. As a Fugitive Recovery Agent, I didn't use my Firearm on a daily basis, but had to use it more times than I would like to remember. Doing this kind of work makes you want to keep your Firearms skill real sharp, and there is no doubt in my mind that you found a good instructor and will probably learn a great deal, just based on his experiences alone. FWIW....Mas is great guy and an exceptional instructor....Doc :D

[redhawk44357]

I'm guessing he doesn't want to kill someone... :) Sorry, couldn't resist being a smartass.

no, i would rather not kill someone. i would rather zap the **** out of him and wait for the police. i would rather not deal with the aftermath of a shooting and having to justify to a DA and greiving relatives why i killed their pride and joy. i would rather disuade the person bent on my destruction in ways that would show them that to continue would be rough on their bodies. as far as bullets go........its shoot to kill. what about behind the assailant? what if you wound them and the bullet continues down the street hitting an innocent? a knife stays in control of the user and so does a cane. one can decide how much is needed..... a cut to the arm or stab in the heart? a strike to the knee or to the head? one can disable or can kill. guns/bullets dont give you that option. i dont know if this explains my position, if not then i am sorry you cant accept my choice not to carry.

[Rex G]

Of course! I carry firearms daily. About 50-ish hours a week, it is a SIG P229 in a duty holster, and the rest of the time I usually tote the same weapon concealed. I am required to provide my own duty weapons, and am blessed that a pistol which fits my hands very well, and points superbly for me, is on the "approved" list of primary duty pistols. I must use .40 ammo at work, so I use it on my own time, too, for logistic simplicity. I may convert my SIGs to 357 SIG after I retire.

For most of my career, I was mandated to carry all the time, everywhere, within the state of Texas, and optionally elsewhere. It recently became optional in Texas, but still highly recommended.

Sometimes, I will tote a couple of SP101 snubbies instead of a SIG. Sometimes, I tote two SIGs. Sometimes, one of each.

Will I still carry after I retire. YES! Need? I never need any piece of emergency equipment, until I do. A knife is a more frequent need, but there is no good substitute for a firearm, if that is what is needed in that rare moment.

[SkullBouncer]

...Just sayin'... / SB!!

[VashHash]

A wise man once printed on a T-Shirt " I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy" LEOs do what they can but sometimes we have to fill in the gap. I don't EDC a gun right now becuase i don't have one. I sold my last handgun because it wasn't as reliable as i wanted. When i can afford it though i'll be getting another handgun and i'll pursue my CCW license. Then i'll EDC spydies and a gun. I'd prefer to use a knife for self defense but the downside is i have to be close to the person. The upside is it's quiet, doesn't over penetrate atleast not much anyway, depends on blade length, no one really knows what happend, i would also feel more honorable. The Down side of not carrying a gun: Honor doesn't mean you live most honorable men are six feet under or if you live in Louisiana 6 feet above but still dead. Someone once said we picture the good guy not needing weapons that he is above them. Unfortunately in todays society every idiot in the world can pull a trigger. Only a skilled person can successfully take down 5 guys without using a single weapon. The good will always suffer because of the bad the more we cater to the law the more we cater to the criminals on the streets. I believe in the rights of the vigilante. I belive in martial law. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I believe if someone takes something from you, Take Everything from them. This is societies view now anyway. We shun other countries for taking a hand for stealing. "thugs" take a life for looking the wrong way. Morals and Values rule our lives but those without either rule your life. Heroes don't go home thats why we remember them. Villians go home maybe not in the movies but in real life they do. Even if it takes them 30 years. Some people still won't defend themselves. I feel sorry for these people especially if they have families. I have a daughter and i would do anything to assure i get home to her ALIVE. Soon I will EDC a gun.

[Cuervo]

Your confidence in the stricture of law and the structure of law enforcement is enviable Woz. I, unfortunately, do not share it. I don't mean ANY kind of slight against the men and women who serve in law enforcement. As a matter of fact, my family has a history of joining and serving honorably in that profession. My grandfather and uncle both served as Chiefs of their police department. My father was employed at that same department before he joined the military, went to college, and wandered down to Texas. I'll grant that my paternal family's hometown (Logan, Ohio), isn't exactly LA or NYC... but the family tradition has practically sublimated a respect for LEOs.

Sorry about the irrelevant backstory... felt the need to establish my bonafides before I said this next part, lest I be judged too harshly :-P.

Policemen are only human... constrained by the limits placed on everyone else in terms of just how many places they can be at the same time, how fast they can transport themselves from one place to another, how observant they will be when they arrive, and how physically capable they will be of handling any situation which might arise at that location.

My desire to carry a deadly weapon is not an indication that I do not trust LEOs. It is indicative of my disagreement with the belief that LEOs are the only ones who should be armed, and it is born of a conviction that policemen cannot be everywhere that they are needed... and if I have supplied myself with the equipment and training necessary to protect myself without the timely intervention of society's protective patina, then I have made one tiny corner of the world (my own) a safer place. Call it a pathological lack of faith in everything outside of myself.

It would appear that in the place of the short comment that I originally planned... I managed to spit out a bit of a rant. My apologies :) .

I couldn't agree more Jordan! And props to you for your service!

I carry, though not on a daily basis, mainly b/c I've been too lazy to get my CCW. When I lived in Arizona, we could open carry. I'm in Texas now, and a permit is not required to carry concealed in our vehicles. Currently 90% of the time I'd need a gun, I'm in my Jeep. The other 10% is either @ work (our building is a bank, and they frown on us carrying), or out on a ranch (the cows don't mind at all).
I will be remedying this in the next couple months though, in preparation for a bear hunt. We'll be muzzleloading, and the only legal backup in the state park is a CCW.

[Jordan]

Thank you Cuervo, and always good to hear from a fellow desert dweller :) .

[MountainManJim]

I guess I’ll address the original question of the thread … why, don’t I carry a gun. Simple, in forty some years I’ve never needed one, so statistically there’s no point. I’m not in a field where it would be needed (contractors and engineers are not that dangerous, really) and I know better to not walk down alleys in the wrong neighborhoods. Plus, at work and job sites guns are not allowed. Actually, based on my local, I’m more worried about Mountain Lions than muggers, but not enough to lug around a gun.


For me, a handgun is useless. But, it’s based on practicality. If my situation changes, I might need to carry one, but that looks unlikely for the next decade. Until my situation changes, I have no use for a handgun (now airguns and my bow are a different story). Certainly, I carry several Spydies and might even use one in my defense, but that’s the beauty of a knife, it can be used to prepare food to give life and it can be used to take a life.

For me, to protect my life it makes more sense to eat right, exercise and be safe in my daily activities. Heck, there’s enough risk in driving to make the likelihood of being killed an attacker look trivial.

Thanks for the thread and discussion,

Jim

[MagnaWolf]

I live in Sweden where it is illegal for "Joe Public" to go around armed. That said I wouldn't get a gun even if it was allowed. My peronal beliefe is that ALL guns are bad. There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun. Now I know that some of you might say: but what if some dirtbag criminal have a gun and threaten your life? Then I give them all my money. That stuff is only material anyway. Regarding the EDC part of it, I'm not very likely to stumble upon a situation in my life where I would NEED a gun. Perhaps if I moved to the States I would...

[TrojanDonkey]

I carry one form of pistol 90%+ of the time.Im 99.99% sure I will never need it.I also know most of the time cops don't/can't stop rapes,assaults and murders.They typically investigate a violent crime after it has happened. NO FAULT OF THEIRS.They are only human and can't be everywhere.I want a pistol as an option.I would rather have it and not need it instead of need it and not have it.I have been shooting hanguns for 25 years and have had my CCW permit since the late 1990s. I unfortunately had a member of my family victimized when I was a child and she was unable to do anything about it. A gun would have really evened the odds IMHO. I COULD kill a bad person to protect myself or a decent person being hurt by a bad person.I also think a gun is much better than a knife for most people in a self defense situation.I have no doubt a knife is better than nothing and it is a tool too.It is legal in more areas but I think it is harder emotionally stabbing/cutting an opponent versus just shooting them.I don't want to hurt anybody and refuse to BE HURT by anybody if possible.

[TrojanDonkey]

I live in Sweden where it is illegal for "Joe Public" to go around armed. That said I wouldn't get a gun even if it was allowed. My peronal beliefe is that ALL guns are bad. There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun. Now I know that some of you might say: but what if some dirtbag criminal have a gun and threaten your life? Then I give them all my money. That stuff is only material anyway. Regarding the EDC part of it, I'm not very likely to stumble upon a situation in my life where I would NEED a gun. Perhaps if I moved to the States I would...

Give them your money,you life,your wife -whatever.Just bowing down before them is what allowed September 11th 2001 to happen. It also encourages more crime.When general public is alllowed to carry legally crime goes down.Your opinion is just as good as mine. If someone doesn't like guns that is fine.Don't own one.As long as you don't try to take MINE away we will get along just fine.Some people don't need guns,cars,kids,matches a microwave oven. Not you-the ones that drink and shoot-gimme a break! Never met a crime victim that thought they was going to be a victim that morning or ever for that matter: I did'nt think it would ever happen to me!

[The Deacon]

More than anything, the realities of my lifestyle. I'm sixty four years old, live in a vey low crime suburban area, and lead a quiet life. I know where the high crime areas in the surrounding communities are and have no need to visit them since I don't do drugs, don't sell drugs, don't patronize prostitutes, and am not a do-gooder. As luck would have it, I can even avoid driving through them without going out of my way, so risk of carjacking or getting caught in crossfiire is low.

Never go to bars and never stroll along city streets or through urban parks late at night so chances of my getting mugged are about the same as those of getting hit by lightening, perhaps lower, since I do occasionally go outside in t-storms to watch the show.

Most realistic SD scenario for me, outside the home, would be attack by a vicious dog and, as good a shot as I once was with a handgun and am sure I could be again, I think a knife would be a better weapon for that. Less chance of collateral damage, fewer potential legal issues.

[Dr. Snubnose]

More than anything, the realities of my lifestyle. I'm sixty four years old, live in a vey low crime suburban area, and lead a quiet life. I know where the high crime areas in the surrounding communities are and have no need to visit them since I don't do drugs, don't sell drugs, don't patronize prostitutes, and am not a do-gooder. As luck would have it, I can even avoid driving through them without going out of my way, so risk of carjacking or getting caught in crossfiire is low.

Never go to bars and never stroll along city streets or through urban parks late at night so chances of my getting mugged are about the same as those of getting hit by lightening, perhaps lower, since I do occasionally go outside in t-storms to watch the show.

Most realistic SD scenario for me, outside the home, would be attack by a vicious dog and, as good a shot as I once was with a handgun and am sure I could be again, I think a knife would be a better weapon for that. Less chance of collateral damage, fewer potential legal issues.

Well if that's the case....I think you would be better armed with a golf club...and remember when watching the lighting show....hold it high above your head just in case there is a vicious dog in the vicinity. :p Doc :D

[Jordan]

There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun.

Bit of a loaded statement for this crowd, some pun intended :p

I respect your right not to understand my choice to carry, right up to the point at which your inability to understand that choice affects my ability to make it. Since you live across the planet from me, I figure that is unlikely to become an issue :) .

[2cha]

That said I wouldn't get a gun even if it was allowed. My peronal beliefe is that ALL guns are bad. There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun. .

If that's your personal belief, I absolutely respect it. I wouldn't force you to carry a gun. I also wouldn't force you to vote. I wouldn't force you to speak your mind. I wouldn't force you to use birth control. I wouldn't force you to have children. I wouldn't force you to go to church, or to stay home. I wouldn't force you to live in one of your counties or another. I wouldn't force you to do a job you didn't like, or forbid you a job you loved. I wouldn't tell you what you must read, and what you can't. I would not interfere with your liberty at all.

For me, gun ownership is a liberty, like the other liberties I mentioned. For me, liberty is a package deal--there is liberty or there is tyranny. If I were to only support the liberties I like, and denigrate those I don't like, I'd be acting tyrannically. I'd be no better than those who would take my right to speak my mind, choose my god, read my books, pick a career, raise my sons, vote for my politicians.

By the way, you don't speak russian as your primary language right now because of american guns.

[The Deacon]

I live in Sweden where it is illegal for "Joe Public" to go around armed. That said I wouldn't get a gun even if it was allowed. My peronal beliefe is that ALL guns are bad. There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun. Now I know that some of you might say: but what if some dirtbag criminal have a gun and threaten your life? Then I give them all my money. That stuff is only material anyway. Regarding the EDC part of it, I'm not very likely to stumble upon a situation in my life where I would NEED a gun. Perhaps if I moved to the States I would...

Hunting, target shooting, and self defense. You may not hunt, but I'm sure there are people in Sweden who do. I've hunted in the past and may do so again in the future. Some there, as some here, may do it not just for sport but to feed themselves.

Target shooting is a legitimate sport, one could argue a far more civilized one that soccer, since participants don't kick one another "accidentally on purpose" and fans don't riot and trample one another to death. Rifle, pistol, and shotgun events are part of the summer Olympics and biathlon is winter Olympics event. By the way, Swedish biatheletes won two gold medals earlier this year.

Finally there's self defense, both from people and from other animals. Whether you'd feel comfortable doing so or not, defending oneself and ones family is the most basic right one has. I may feel no need to carry on a daily basis where I live now, but I lived in a rural area for a few years where bear were common enough that carrying a gun while walking, especially in the spring, was not a bad idea. As far as criminals I can also tell you from personal experience that "just giving them the money" does not always work. Sometimes, they'll kill you anyway, or at least try to. Perhaps there are no sociopaths, or just plain evil people, in Sweden, but I doubt it.

[chuck_roxas45]

I live in Sweden where it is illegal for "Joe Public" to go around armed. That said I wouldn't get a gun even if it was allowed. My peronal beliefe is that ALL guns are bad. There isn't a single reason why ANYONE should have a gun. Now I know that some of you might say: but what if some dirtbag criminal have a gun and threaten your life? Then I give them all my money. That stuff is only material anyway. Regarding the EDC part of it, I'm not very likely to stumble upon a situation in my life where I would NEED a gun. Perhaps if I moved to the States I would...

I would be glad to dispense with carrying my CCW too if our government can bring down levels of violent crime in our society. The ratio of LEOs to the population is way over the unfavorable part of the spectrum and the budget for our law enforcement agencies is insufficient to say the least. All this means that even with the best of intentions our LEOs could not even begin to cope.

When a guy came running at me with a meter long GI pipe, maybe I should just have run and left my wife at his mercy. Or maybe he could have caught me and beat the crap out of me or even killed me, and all because of a traffic disagreement. Instead of running though I presented my weapon fully prepared to do what was needed. I may have communicated my resolve completely because the guy stopped his aggression and ran away. So, HOW WAS THE GUN BAD IN THAT SITUATION?

[BBQ BOY]

I carry everyday. After being held up at an ATM, Shot at and my brother being kidnapped at our place of business after I fired him, heck we all carry and guess what????? We all live in very nice quiet areas with high income levels and our business is in a nice area as well.