Worst nightmare came true: PD confiscated my ParaMilitary..

[GarageBoy]

I don't care about the PMillie anymore, I just want the best way to get off this thing

[Slatts]

I don't care about the PMillie anymore, I just want the best way to get off this thing

That's what the thug cop is counting on. I don't wish anyone getting in any deeper hole than they have the ability to climb out of, but if you have the resources, fight this!

[Bolster]

The only possible argument I can see (and it is pretty weak) is that the knife was secured inside your pocket, held there by the clip, rather than being displayed openly as was charged. Language to the effect of "Your Honor, I had the knife clipped to the inside of my pocket, I really didn't believe that qualified as open display. It was not my intention to violate the law."

From what we know about the case, I think that's a decent argument. You could add that the knife was designed to be carried this way, so that it would stay safe and secure in your pocket. That last sentence "It was not my intention to violate the law" is important. If it were me, I'd definitely want to run this argument past my attorney...they can see things the rest of us can't. I know it's fun to lawyer-bash and all, but when you need one, there's no better ally in the world.

[Vincent]

I really hate the NYPD when it comes to this. I carry my knives out in the open, the knives are in the pocket but the clip is outside and is always visible. The way I take the law and what I have asked police is they allow a pocket knife under 4", but if it can be opened by an inertial force then it is a gravity knife. This is the same for almost every pocket knife except the sak. Even though ive heard stories of them having a machine that could open any knife by an inertial force if they wanted to. I wouldn't give up the hobby Id just keep doing the same. I do tend to weak my knife, especially the military clipped horizontally to my pocket, this way its under my shirt.

I don't mean to offend people but Police don't know the law, if they did then we wouldn't need lawyers. I would try to beat it and play it as a tool. I would get the knife back or sue the city/state.

I have been stopped by university at buffalo police and they really didn't care they just told me to conceal, but I never do. I usually only conceal my Military.

another incident of mine was after the subway attacks in London, i was getting on the train with my pack and they asked to search it. I was headed up to Middletown and they saw in my pack about 5 spyderco blades. They at this time didn't say a thing.


If you bought the knife at NGK I am sure they would be glad to make you a receipt to help you out, or maybe even other stores.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Doc, if I send you a box of knives and a video camera, will you record inertial openings of them for me? I'd love to see how you inertial open a sunfish pattern with enough snap to remove unwary fingers. I'd place a small wager that it can't be done.

As far as I could tell from the original post, only the clip and the portion of the knife above it (considerable on a Para) was outside the pocket. It wouldn't have even been noticed here, but New York City has more politians than we have people here. The knife is gone. Get over it. You can buy at least a dozen more for less than the legal fees to attempt to recover that one.

I drove through New York City once (1977, about two hours before the blackout) and I swore then that I would never go back. I haven't seen anything in the last thirty years that would change my mind.

Yep I'd do it if you let me keep everyone I open :p Doc :D BTW I have opened Sunfish Pattern knives either the single or double blades at the same time....it can be done...I know I'm not the only one who can do this either...I have seen many do it.....Doc

[peacefuljeffrey]

Okay, I'm walking down the stairs at the Grand Central subway station ..

And you ran into crooked cops who don't believe you should have on you the simplest tool man has ever possessed apart from the blunt rock or stick. :mad:

I'm sorry to read what happened to you.

You need to GTF out of NYC ASAP.

And it's sad to say, but I'll be this'll mean that you, from now on, will view cops as NOT being "good guys," as NOT being "on your side."

And who's to blame? The crooked cops who abused you and trampled your rights.

-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

I'm also puzzled about the "outside of pocket" clipping as opposed to "inside the pocket" clipping. Seems to me that GarageBoy's clipping the knife outside his pocket is more "honest" and less "concealing," more like how many laws demand fixed blades be worn. Yet it seems that it was clipping the knife to the outside of the pocket that got the officer wound up?

At any rate, GarageBoy, I'm truly saddened by this. Let us know how it turns out.

Oh, please! You are acting like you don't understand that this is not about the authorities acting in good faith. This is about them being deliberately disingenuous, deliberately obtuse.

They were not there to argue the logical and factual points. They were there to abuse a civilian and trample his rights. You're acting like there was some logical presentation that could have been made where they would have said, "Oh, gee, I guess you're right. Sorry 'bout that. Carry on." :mad: :rolleyes:

Nuh-uh.


-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

As for the gravity knife issue, under NYS law, the definition of them has been established by case-law precedent as a locking knife capable of being opened with "a simple flick of the wrist".

And nobody even wants to open the discussion, "Um, WHY is it so important how a knife is opened?!" :rolleyes:

Who gives a flying crap how a knife is opened. How it is USED is what's important. A knife that is so super-tight that the thumbhole MUST be used to open it, but is otherwise the exact same blade length and geometry as a "flick-open" blade is okay, but the flick-open knife is bad and should get you in trouble?

This is insanity. :mad:

I don't own a Paramilitary, but I know that at least some other Spyderco compression lock models with screw pivots can be "tuned" so that they would fail that test, even if it were administered by a totally impartial person. Many others, straight out of the box, can be flicked open with a more forceful motion of the entire arm. While they may be legal, individual police officers may feel they are not.

Once again, there is no justification for skirting the issue of why it even matters. :mad:

[peacefuljeffrey]

This is what you were cited with. <snip>
Move out of the city, or start carrying concealed. Joe

Mastiff, thanks for posting that.

What a sickening, outrageous load of crap!!

The thing that is most sickening is that such drivel, such FALSEHOOD, sits on the books, unchallenged. It's just taken as gospel because some moron city commissioners wrote it. That makes it true?! No!

Let's blame the knife for making criminals stab people. :mad:

OMG if you read this stuff and know it is true and are willing to do nothing to change it, at LEAST then move the **** out of that city!


-PJ

[The Mastiff]

Garage boy, all of us here feel for you, and we get pissed off too but we can't really give you advice any better than to talk to an attorney from your area. Most preferably a criminal defense attorney.

If it was not in plain sight, maybe they can help. Apparently you didn't intend for it to be in plain sight. That makes me even more frustrated for you, but none of us can do what a local criminal defense attorney can do, which probably means just to give you advice that can help. A simple consultation shouldn't be expensive. Once again, good luck.

[peacefuljeffrey]

Sorry JD, but I honestly don't find that law any more oppresive than the one that says I can't walk around in public with my penis hanging out.

Oh, yeah, that's similar. :rolleyes:


You honestly can't tell that a person is not a menace to society just because a knife he is carrying is visible?

How about we wait to see if someone actually tries to HARM people before agreeing that he's done something criminal?

I am flabbergasted that you are taking the side of The Man on this. Jeez.


-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

Some have assumed that it was hanging outside of the pocket. Even if it was clipped in the normal manner, it is "displayed" if people can see the clip and some portion of the knife. That is part of the reason I choose to go clippless. Even if some type of deeper hanging clips were used on future models, many people would assume the object hanging from that clip would be a knife. Telling a judge (or anybody) that you carry a knife on the street because you "need" it at work to open packages, probably isn't going to carry much weight. Everybody knows what a box cutter is, and they can be left at the work place.

The simple fact is that you can end up "needing" a knife for any of 10,000 reasons, anywhere you happen to be]believe[/i] Them when They imply that anyone who carries a knife must be a criminal.

Why do some of you "see it their way" so readily?!


-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

I think calling an ordinance which prohibits carrying a knife, or any other item that could potentially be used as a weapon, in open display in a city of almost 20 MILLION people, with a population density of 2000 per square mile "pure third world oppression" stretches the definition of oppression a whole lot further.

You speak as though you believe that a law that prohibits carrying knives actually prevents crime. :rolleyes:

You speak as though you believe that in a city of 20M people, just passing a law that says "you can't" actually makes people "not."

A law that can put you into legal trouble for doing something harmless and causing no damage to anyone or anything is an oppressive law whether the population of the jurisdiction is 20 million or 2,000.

Oh, and didn't you know, just about ANYTHING can be "used as a weapon."

You seem to side with those who would prohibit carry of knives. I suppose yours are offered for sale cheap?


-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

Although I am still confused regarding numerous knife carry laws which want any fixed edge knife worn in full view. If the issue here was that the knife was in full view, then are we to assume that the law inconsistently wants folders out of view? In which case, clipless carry becomes a more attractive option.

But I can also imagine being frisked, and getting sent up the river for "concealing" my knife in my pocket! Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

That's exactly why I said that these laws are not set up in good faith]which[/i] course of action you chose.

They are therefore corrupt.

I know it's cynical, and I've already expressed my views on this, but I really think the government's position can be summed up: "We don't want any of you to be able to defend yourselves. Just submit, and be a victim--that's the option of which your government approves."

You are absolutely correct.


-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

I think I'll put a Byrd in my pocket when I have to go to the big bad city.
And leave my more precious ones at home for the occasion.

Why would you even deign to visit such a deplorable place if it makes you have to do that? :mad:

And I understand even LESS why someone would agree to live there. It's like getting abused, having no rights, being treated daily like a criminal, and saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another!" :rolleyes:


-PJ

[spydutch]

Well, I guess I'm giving my Milie a well deserved rest and start packing my Delica 3/SE again.

You never know what the cops in my town come up with :confused:

[peacefuljeffrey]

From what we know about the case, I think that's a decent argument. You could add that the knife was designed to be carried this way, so that it would stay safe and secure in your pocket. That last sentence "It was not my intention to violate the law" is important. If it were me, I'd definitely want to run this argument past my attorney...they can see things the rest of us can't.

Read: They are familiar and versed in the kind of irrational NON-think that passes for jurisprudence in such circles. They know how to maneuver among the LIES, that what you meant? :mad:

[Piet.S]

Why would you even deign to visit such a deplorable place if it makes you have to do that? :mad: -PJ

To visit a Spyderco meet in Amsterdam for one thing.
And if in a neighborhood it is restricted to carry a knife, it means there is a fair bit of scum around.
Sounds like a very good reason to have something with you that can be used to defend yourself.

[GarageBoy]

I already have my friend's sister whos a lawyer giving me some assistance as well as a few LEOs. They're all telling me it's just a violation and the equivalent of a speeding ticket.

Thanks again guys

[The Mastiff]

Garageboy, actually thanks for posting your story. I hate to learn from your experiences when it's on your dime but I believe you have given us all something to think about. Most of us here are revaluating our own situations for loopholes so in a way it really is helpfull to those of us even not living in NYC. Once again good luck, and don't get down on yourself for what happened. The way you describe the incident, I know it could have happened to me. Don't give up on knives either, just revaluate and make adjustments. They are still a necessary tool for most of us, likely you too. Joe