A2 takes a great edge and is easy to sharpen. A simple stropping with Flitz on cardboard will pop and edge right back if done often and correctly.
52100 is a great steel and one I would be very happy with.
Spyderco Bushcraft Knife
Test Results
Salsal wrote:Hi Butch,
Actually, I do forge 52100 when I forge. However, we just found a source for sheet 52100 which we're testing now.
sal
It would be great to hear how the tests go. I'm sure that the gentlemen on BB and Bushcraft UK would be very interested in a comparative test between O1 and 52100 steel.
Cheers, Ken
-
Joe Talmadge
- Member
- Posts: 1077
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Great topic! :)
My current fixed outdoor and camping knives are SR Camp Tramp and Fallkniven F1. Always carry them both, CT for chopping and all the hard work and F1 for finer work, whittling, food-prep etc.
F1 is great, but Spyderco bushcraft knife of that size could be even better! Here what I would like to see on new Spyderco:
1. premium STAINLESS steel - S30V or VG10. (Laminated?)
(I'm quite careless with knives and my Camp Tramp often gets some rust on the edge. Smaller carbon knife used for food-prep would rust even more. I know that carbon steels are tough, hold great edge and can be sharepened easily, but for me stainlessness is MANDATORY.)
2. max 4mm thick, full flat ground with quite thin edge.
(F1 is a bit too thick near the edge IMHO. Convex egde makes it exceptionally strong, maybe too strong, since I never use it for chopping. Slicing and push-cuts, that's all. Also, I must admit that I never learned to sharpen convex edge to my satisfaction. Tried all methods I could find on the Net but was never able to put shaving-sharp edge to my F1. Eventually, I put secondary bevel on it and now I sharpen it on the Sharpmaker)
3. more drop-point and little bit less belly than F1.
(It's easier to sharpen and I usually don't need so much belly.)
4. strong tip
5. NO finger choil
(Large knives NEED choils but I don't like choils on a small knives. I like F1 because it doesn't have one and I dislike RAT-3 because it has.)
6. full-tang replaceable canvas micarta handles
(As on Ontario RAT-3, with stainless torx screws. Little less pronounced handle guard)
7. ambidextrous Kydex sheath w/Tek-Lok
My current fixed outdoor and camping knives are SR Camp Tramp and Fallkniven F1. Always carry them both, CT for chopping and all the hard work and F1 for finer work, whittling, food-prep etc.
F1 is great, but Spyderco bushcraft knife of that size could be even better! Here what I would like to see on new Spyderco:
1. premium STAINLESS steel - S30V or VG10. (Laminated?)
(I'm quite careless with knives and my Camp Tramp often gets some rust on the edge. Smaller carbon knife used for food-prep would rust even more. I know that carbon steels are tough, hold great edge and can be sharepened easily, but for me stainlessness is MANDATORY.)
2. max 4mm thick, full flat ground with quite thin edge.
(F1 is a bit too thick near the edge IMHO. Convex egde makes it exceptionally strong, maybe too strong, since I never use it for chopping. Slicing and push-cuts, that's all. Also, I must admit that I never learned to sharpen convex edge to my satisfaction. Tried all methods I could find on the Net but was never able to put shaving-sharp edge to my F1. Eventually, I put secondary bevel on it and now I sharpen it on the Sharpmaker)
3. more drop-point and little bit less belly than F1.
(It's easier to sharpen and I usually don't need so much belly.)
4. strong tip
5. NO finger choil
(Large knives NEED choils but I don't like choils on a small knives. I like F1 because it doesn't have one and I dislike RAT-3 because it has.)
6. full-tang replaceable canvas micarta handles
(As on Ontario RAT-3, with stainless torx screws. Little less pronounced handle guard)
7. ambidextrous Kydex sheath w/Tek-Lok
make all :spyder:'s ambidextrous!
-
Manix Guy 2
- Member
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:49 pm
- Location: Central Illinois
This is getting better !
Like the idea of testing different steels for this project , Sal is right on !let's be open minded with steel types and not be stuck in a rut , there are alot of nice steels to look at , we just need a great fit for this knife type . Recenting handled and sold a Rat3 and a Tak1 and preferred the larger Tak1 in D2 because of my hand size , both had nice sheaths for everyone , not sure how coating holds up . BRKT Highlander I got in mail yesterday is very nice in A2 and fit my custom Rankin leather sheath may be a keeper. I agree what ever comes out of design a lefty / righty sheath is a must .
-
Joe Talmadge
- Member
- Posts: 1077
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Stainless versus not
Some thoughts on stainless versus not:
I love the performance of the tool and alloy steels in this space. I think that's universally appreciated. But in thinking about why so many of my small camp knives are stainless, I came to a couple of conclusions:
- Many bushcrafters like steels such as O-1 because they can "sharpen them on a rock". As many have pointed out, perhaps this is the difference between an American outdoorsman and a British bushcrafter ... I'm perfectly happy carrying around a small diamond card (put a slot for it in the sheath if you want), and am okay having to sharpen higher-alloy steels such as A-2, or even VG-10. I'm okay if I can't sharpen on a rock.
- Many -- not all -- bushcrafters are optimizing for woodwork. Again, tool steels work great here. But I do lots of other things, most importantly food prep. Do I want to be cutting food with my O-1 blade that I constantly slather with Tuff Cloth to keep from rusting? (BTW, doing food prep is also the reason I lean towards a full flat grind rather than Scandi grind).
I' d be thrilled if this knife came out in A-2 or 52100 or any number of other non-stainless steels. But, unlike many bushcrafters, I'd happily pick up a stainless blade as well, for the reasons outlined above. Rough decision, depending on whom Sal is trying to reach. I'd be thrilled with either choice, but some of the more traditional guys will want non-stainless. With stainless, I'll carry around my little stone. With non-stainless, I'll carry around a cheap kitchen knife or my AG Russell folding santoku.
I love the performance of the tool and alloy steels in this space. I think that's universally appreciated. But in thinking about why so many of my small camp knives are stainless, I came to a couple of conclusions:
- Many bushcrafters like steels such as O-1 because they can "sharpen them on a rock". As many have pointed out, perhaps this is the difference between an American outdoorsman and a British bushcrafter ... I'm perfectly happy carrying around a small diamond card (put a slot for it in the sheath if you want), and am okay having to sharpen higher-alloy steels such as A-2, or even VG-10. I'm okay if I can't sharpen on a rock.
- Many -- not all -- bushcrafters are optimizing for woodwork. Again, tool steels work great here. But I do lots of other things, most importantly food prep. Do I want to be cutting food with my O-1 blade that I constantly slather with Tuff Cloth to keep from rusting? (BTW, doing food prep is also the reason I lean towards a full flat grind rather than Scandi grind).
I' d be thrilled if this knife came out in A-2 or 52100 or any number of other non-stainless steels. But, unlike many bushcrafters, I'd happily pick up a stainless blade as well, for the reasons outlined above. Rough decision, depending on whom Sal is trying to reach. I'd be thrilled with either choice, but some of the more traditional guys will want non-stainless. With stainless, I'll carry around my little stone. With non-stainless, I'll carry around a cheap kitchen knife or my AG Russell folding santoku.
The Answer!
Sal
Make one of each! :D
The Spyderco "Traditional Bushcraft Knife"
Carbon steel blade, Scandi grind, Wood handle.
The Spyderco "New Age Bushcraft Knife"
Stainless steel blade, full flat grind, G-10/Krayton handle, Kydex sheath.
Sorted! :D
Use the same blade and handle shape for each in order that the sheaths are interchangable.
Cheers, Ken
Make one of each! :D
The Spyderco "Traditional Bushcraft Knife"
Carbon steel blade, Scandi grind, Wood handle.
The Spyderco "New Age Bushcraft Knife"
Stainless steel blade, full flat grind, G-10/Krayton handle, Kydex sheath.
Sorted! :D
Use the same blade and handle shape for each in order that the sheaths are interchangable.
Cheers, Ken
Hi Sean,
welcome to the Spyderco forum. "When" is not a question to which many here feel there is no real answer :rolleyes: .
First there is the "what", then the "how to", then development, protos, tooling, testing, refinement, "glitches". Then we deal with "when". By the time the answer arrives, few remember the quetion. :o
We're trying to improve that, but as a small company coming out with 20 or so new models each year means that we're developing 50 at any given time. A big chore for just a few people.
Hey Joe, I really don't know where it's going. Ken brought up the question, so finding an answer seemed logical. Certainly the discussion is interesting, if not exciting.
We're still trying to capture a portion of the fixed blade market, so we're open to customer input. The Moran and the Kumo are still about, Temperance is gone and the Vagabond is going next year.
Next year we have 4 Hossom designs (fixed blade versions of his "Retribution" folder in 5" - 9" blade lengths, no clips
) and 2 Schempp designs. There is a "hole" in our offerings for a small utility pattern that is a "general" purpose outdoor blade.
I think the "bushcrafter" concept can provide the pattern. Variety in materials, steel, grind, etc. can offer two versions that fill both needs.
If I had to guess:
There will be a spearpoint pattern in 52100 with a ???? grind, natural handle material, (probably some very nice wood), Leather sheath designed by some of the bushcrafters on the BCUK forum (Red, Tiffers, etc.), if they're willing? They're far better experienced to create a solution to that question than I am.
Once that is nailed down, We create a "NASA" version (as Martyn, on BB calls it). Exotic stainless, full flat or hamaguri grind, carbn fiber scales, Kydex sheath, etc. of the same pattern.
I certainly appreciate everyone's input. And I also apreciate Ken's asking the question. A bonafide "trouble-maker".
We have had offers of designs by experienced bushcrafters which is certainly a time saver forus on the design end, assuming they meet our ergo requirements, which tend to be a bit anal, but bushcrafters seem to be also anal about ergos, which is a good thing.
sal
welcome to the Spyderco forum. "When" is not a question to which many here feel there is no real answer :rolleyes: .
First there is the "what", then the "how to", then development, protos, tooling, testing, refinement, "glitches". Then we deal with "when". By the time the answer arrives, few remember the quetion. :o
We're trying to improve that, but as a small company coming out with 20 or so new models each year means that we're developing 50 at any given time. A big chore for just a few people.
Hey Joe, I really don't know where it's going. Ken brought up the question, so finding an answer seemed logical. Certainly the discussion is interesting, if not exciting.
We're still trying to capture a portion of the fixed blade market, so we're open to customer input. The Moran and the Kumo are still about, Temperance is gone and the Vagabond is going next year.
Next year we have 4 Hossom designs (fixed blade versions of his "Retribution" folder in 5" - 9" blade lengths, no clips
) and 2 Schempp designs. There is a "hole" in our offerings for a small utility pattern that is a "general" purpose outdoor blade. I think the "bushcrafter" concept can provide the pattern. Variety in materials, steel, grind, etc. can offer two versions that fill both needs.
If I had to guess:
There will be a spearpoint pattern in 52100 with a ???? grind, natural handle material, (probably some very nice wood), Leather sheath designed by some of the bushcrafters on the BCUK forum (Red, Tiffers, etc.), if they're willing? They're far better experienced to create a solution to that question than I am.
Once that is nailed down, We create a "NASA" version (as Martyn, on BB calls it). Exotic stainless, full flat or hamaguri grind, carbn fiber scales, Kydex sheath, etc. of the same pattern.
I certainly appreciate everyone's input. And I also apreciate Ken's asking the question. A bonafide "trouble-maker".
We have had offers of designs by experienced bushcrafters which is certainly a time saver forus on the design end, assuming they meet our ergo requirements, which tend to be a bit anal, but bushcrafters seem to be also anal about ergos, which is a good thing.
sal
Trouble Maker?
Sal
I prefer "Instigator"
I am very impressed with the way that this idea has picked up momentum. :) The Bushcraft UK guys, and Tiffers :) have come up with some great ideas especially where the sheath is concerned. There have even been some very positive comments about the use of 52100!
I look forward to these knives being produced. The traditional knife sounds great, but the "NASA"...... One small step...... :p :)
OK, "trouble-maker" it is! "People are as good as they can be"
Cheers, Ken
I prefer "Instigator"
I am very impressed with the way that this idea has picked up momentum. :) The Bushcraft UK guys, and Tiffers :) have come up with some great ideas especially where the sheath is concerned. There have even been some very positive comments about the use of 52100!
I look forward to these knives being produced. The traditional knife sounds great, but the "NASA"...... One small step...... :p :)
OK, "trouble-maker" it is! "People are as good as they can be"
Cheers, Ken
Maybe instead of a 'NASA' version, it could be a 'survival' version. In some ways, bushcraft and survival are extreme opposites.sal wrote:Once that is nailed down, We create a "NASA" version (as Martyn, on BB calls it). Exotic stainless, full flat or hamaguri grind, carbn fiber scales, Kydex sheath, etc. of the same pattern.
sal
In bushcraft you want to stay in the woods, in survival situations you want to get out (rescued) ASAP. With bushcraft you don't want to be seen, with survival you want to get noticed. (well, not in a war zone I guess...)
Most bushcraft stuff is brown/green, most survival items are orange/yellow (easy to find/spot).
So maybe the 'NASA/survival' could have orange G-10 as opposed to carbon fiber?
-
zenheretic
- Member
- Posts: 7549
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:47 am
- Location: USA, Earth
spearpoint
Spearpoint like in the Spyderfly??? Make it longer by proportion, and increase the crossguards just a smidgeon would be great...along with some nice ironwood handles. :)sal wrote: There will be a spearpoint pattern in 52100 with a ???? grind, natural handle material, (probably some very nice wood), Leather sheath designed by some of the bushcrafters on the BCUK forum (Red, Tiffers, etc.), if they're willing? They're far better experienced to create a solution to that question than I am.
sal
Follow the mushin, but pay it no heed.