Spyderco Tomahawk?

[Ookami]

I really like to see the project coming along. Cutting wood and throwing? Woohoo, just what I'd like. I'd also like to add some random thoughts:

The tomahawks of rmjtactical.com have upped the ante for tactical tomahawks regarding both design and performance, so I think it would be hard for Spyderco to compete if they chose the same application. I think Spyderco would be better off producing a more utility oriented tomahawk.

Utility oriented to me is not:
- backspike
- sharpened beard
- straight cutting edge
- obtuse edge for smashing things like windshields, cinder blocks
- anything like that abomination from gggaz.com
- pry-bar butt; I don't like the idea of 2 business ends
- serrations, you can carry a knife for that
- hollow grinds

Utility oriented to me is:
- hammer poll
- sharp edge
- edge trailing towards the handle (unlike the Sayoc Winkler Hawk; this can be dangerous:eek :)
- a steel that is both impact resistant and can be sharpened to an edge that will "cut it" - that rules out Super Blue Steel, ZDP189, and others, that would be good for a knife blade

I also like the idea of a modern, lightweight, but amply sized Hawk along the lines of the French Trade Axe by Gr?nsfors Bruks. A coating may be useful to some to prevent corrosion. I also like the look of the K5 Tactical Hammer Poll Hawk, yet, they are on the heavy side and have that silly sharpened beard.


Ookami

[Blerv]

I believe Sal said they were looking to proto a folding T-Hawk at one point. Good for those non-impaling backpacking events :)

[defenestrate]

I would be very excited to see a :spyder: hatchet that can handle decent chopping chores (I don't expect magic, just adequate tool function for whatever size it is manufactured at) and throwing. I have a couple of inexpensive hatchets, one of which unfortuntely shattered (I think it would make a cool ulu though) - anyway, count me very interested in a hatchet that can chop and throw. I am less concerned about the specific steel (I know H1 isn't cheap, and probably not necessary, though I wouldn't mind it!) than knowing that whatever materials are used have been tested under throwing and chopping conditions if possible.

[Wanderer]

I think a tomahawk would be a great idea. But the material used is a big issue. Someone stated earlier that it would need to be impact resistant. Chrome, the main element used to give stainless steel its "stainlessness" is also a hardening element. If you really desire to, get a chart of steels used as knife blades, like the list in the back of Spyderco's catalogs, that give the elements used in each steel. Then get out a periodic table and begin looking at the weights of each of the elements. Figure out which elements offer the best edge retention, hardness, impact resistance, etc.... So, most likely, a tool type steel is the best offering.
Then weight begins to play, you want something efficient but light. The metal piece should not be too thick, that would increase wight. It should not be too thin, as that would hamper the tools reliability and durability.
This probably sounds like something you might have learned in High school chemistry. :) Sorry it sounds so technical.

[Dr. Snubnose]

[quote="Ookami"]I really like to see the project coming along. Cutting wood and throwing? Woohoo, just what I'd like. I'd also like to add some random thoughts:

The tomahawks of rmjtactical.com have upped the ante for tactical tomahawks regarding both design and performance, so I think it would be hard for Spyderco to compete if they chose the same application. I think Spyderco would be better off producing a more utility oriented tomahawk.


I think you would be amazed if Spyderco were to make a Tactical Tomahawk...simply amazed....Doc :D

[usmc1371]

I would love an H-1 hawk just to keep on my boat where everything is supject to salt water. It would be great for taking the heads off of tuna or cutting heavy line under tension and with H-1 I wouldn't have to worry about it being all rusty when I really need it. And if it's light enough to carry it may keep me from battoning my knives through the pelvic bones of deer and elk. I don't really care about the "tacticoool factor'' a wise man once said ''don't bring a knife (or hawk) to a gun fight" and any fight with me involved is a gun fight. There are plenty of companies making "hawks" that look more like weapons than tools I would like to see a more usefull version.

[Ookami]

@Dr. Subnose: I didn't want to say that Spyderco could not produce a perfectly acceptable tactical tomahawk. I just wanted to point out that there is a lot of competition in the tactical tomahawk business: ATC offerings, RMJ Tactical hawks, K5 hawks, Cold Steel's Vietnam Tomahawk, and the hawks by Hayes Knives, Sog Fusion, and Condor Knife and Tool are the ones that I can think of at the moment*. These cover a price range from $50 to $400 and all of them are supposedly their money's worth.

So how is Spyderco going to compete? Add another spike hawk? I think one of Spyderco's strengths is covering niches in a most unexpected and innovative way. Look at the SpydeRench, it's a multitool, alright, but nothing like your average Leatherman inspired multitool.

That's why, IMO, Spyderco won't just do just another tactical tomahawk like the others. My hope is that Spyderco will produce a modernized version of the tomahawk that offers high performance as a tool (for chopping and hammering, not forced entry) and sporting implement (i.e. throwing). Let's face it, most people don't need to chop their way out of a downed helicopter on a daily basis or conduct urban warfare. I think a lot of people would be better off with a tomahawk that does'nt scare the living daylights out of other people and that is a lightweight, high performance alternative to the average camping hatchet


Ookami

*The Swamprat Crash Axt and Busse hawks also come to mind, but I didn't include them, since these are limited pieces and out of production.

[Blerv]

Oops, it seems I accidentally bumped this one. Darn.

I've been looking more into the hatchet/hawk scene lately. I'm digging the tool steel after seeing a few Gransfors Bruks in video clips.

So with the exception of throwers it seems they fall into two categories (yet different configurations and sizes of each):

1.) Woodland

2.) Tactical

I would assume a good woodland/camp hatchet or small axe would serve a better secondary tactical role than a breech Tomahawk (ATC Vietnam style) as a secondary wood chopper. I believe Sal already said the tactical hawk route isn't the goal and that's prob a very smart idea with enough competing products in that field. I'll take anything with a round hole they make, folder or fixed. =)

Question to all you outdoors folks: small axe vs large knife for general outdoor use/survival? (Ex: Hossom Forester vs GB Small Forest Axe or Mini Camp Axe)

[Dr. Snubnose]

I'm still hoping that Spyderco considers A Tactical Hawk...yes yes..there are many tactical hawks on the market today...but how many are that good...how many are Spyderco Good. Even though I don't fight my way from the helicopter to my house on a daily basis, there is nothing wrong with a good tomahawk stashed in the your living room that you might be able to use to fight your way to your gun safe. Sure a camp hatchet for cutting twigs in the woods is fine, but they can be had for anywhere from $7 (Walmart Special) up to $50 in a fancy dancy hardware or outdoors equipment store. For that kind of money why would spyderco even consider making such a thing...start up costs to make one would probably be more than the profits could yield cause the average Joe is going to go to Walmart for a hand axe. Now a Tactical Hawk is another breed unto itself...I have several custom Vietnam style Hawks that cost me upwards of $500. To set itself apart from the others out there, all Spyderco needs to do is select a great steel combined with a great design to make it's mark. Wouldn't H1 Tomahawk do the trick I ask you? Tomahawks make awesome defensive tools. There are not to many people out there teaching the techniques and skills needed to effectively wield a tomahawk granted. But I think more and more will come out of the woodwork if better products were made for Tactical uses. I recently gave a workshop on the Tactical Tomahawk. Most of my students who took the workshop did not know what to expect. Most did not even entertain the thought that it could be such an effective defensive tool. They probably didn't even think about buying a real hawk for that purpose at all. I think most signed up for the workshop because I'm such a great instructor (shameless plug LOL). No really it was probably because it is not my run of the mill defensive workshops and most were curious. I had a custom tomahawk maker make us up some really durable trainers that not only held up well, but were strong enough to use as a defensive tool all by itself. I'll tell you what...after the workshop each and every participant went right out and bought themselves a Defensive Tactical Tomahawk style of their own liking. The comment I heard most from the participants were they never realized how versatile a defensive tool it was. Most did not realize that you could stab effectively with a Hawk, and that the heavy mass generates tremendous force that will crash right through the defenses of someone blocking with a knife, stick, cane, baseball bat and machete. They found out very quickly that the Tomahawk can be used to trap, control and hook their opponents weapons but also manipulate their opponents arms, legs, neck and even torso. They found out the the Tomahawk has the ability to rake,chop, stab, punch, hack, slice, catch, smash, rip, gouge, hook, slap, push, pull, hammer, to be thrown and cut effectively making it an awesome self defense tool in close quarter combat. Unlike a stick, machete, knife or even a bullet, one hard hit from a Tomahawk is enough to put even the largest man down for the count.
Those students walked away from the workshop with a new understanding, greater appreciation and a new found respect for the Tomahawk and it's abilities to be used to defend oneself with it.
If Spyderco wants to make a hand hatchet for the woods..IMHO nothing they could come up with would be real special or any different from what is already out there. Now if they make a superb Tactical Hawk (like I know that they can) they would blow away the competition. I for one would have one in my car, house,truck, boat, RV,...heck I'd buy one for every member of my family to do the same with....Doc :D

[Blerv]

Using a tool/spring steel and coating it would prob keep costs down and profit high. I'd like to see edge retention/shock/shear testings from spyderco with all the recent survival talk.

How about a folder with replacement heads? H1 tactical, high carbon wood, etc? :) I'd love a set of diff heads for one super unique/ergonomic tool. Having multiple heads would also cut down on pack weight for survival (less tools) and nix the edge retention issue completely (spare heads).

ps: I totally agree Doc. Most the hawk teachers Ive seen on the web are bigger tools than the ones they wield, lol. It's like some of the kerambit folks.

[clovisc]

Tomahawks make awesome defensive tools. There are not to many people out there teaching the techniques and skills needed to effectively wield a tomahawk granted. But I think more and more will come out of the woodwork if better products were made for Tactical uses. I recently gave a workshop on the Tactical Tomahawk. Most of my students who took the workshop did not know what to expect. Most did not even entertain the thought that it could be such an effective defensive tool. They probably didn't even think about buying a real hawk for that purpose at all. I think most signed up for the workshop because I'm such a great instructor (shameless plug LOL). No really it was probably because it is not my run of the mill defensive workshops and most were curious. I had a custom tomahawk maker make us up some really durable trainers that not only held up well, but were strong enough to use as a defensive tool all by itself. I'll tell you what...after the workshop each and every participant went right out and bought themselves a Defensive Tactical Tomahawk style of their own liking. The comment I heard most from the participants were they never realized how versatile a defensive tool it was. Most did not realize that you could stab effectively with a Hawk, and that the heavy mass generates tremendous force that will crash right through the defenses of someone blocking with a knife, stick, cane, baseball bat and machete. They found out very quickly that the Tomahawk can be used to trap, control and hook their opponents weapons but also manipulate their opponents arms, legs, neck and even torso. They found out the the Tomahawk has the ability to rake,chop, stab, punch, hack, slice, catch, smash, rip, gouge, hook, slap, push, pull, hammer, to be thrown and cut effectively making it an awesome self defense tool in close quarter combat. Unlike a stick, machete, knife or even a bullet, one hard hit from a Tomahawk is enough to put even the largest man down for the count.
Those students walked away from the workshop with a new understanding, greater appreciation and a new found respect for the Tomahawk and it's abilities to be used to defend oneself with it.
If Spyderco wants to make a hand hatchet for the woods..IMHO nothing they could come up with would be real special or any different from what is already out there. Now if they make a superb Tactical Hawk (like I know that they can) they would blow away the competition. I for one would have one in my car, house,truck, boat, RV,...heck I'd buy one for every member of my family to do the same with....Doc :D

ok -- that settles it. i'm getting a tomahawk -- ASAP!!!!!!!! :D :D :eek: :eek: :eek:

[tkdlaxer]

I'm still hoping that Spyderco considers A Tactical Hawk...yes yes..there are many tactical hawks on the market today...but how many are that good...how many are Spyderco Good. Even though I don't fight my way from the helicopter to my house on a daily basis, there is nothing wrong with a good tomahawk stashed in the your living room that you might be able to use to fight your way to your gun safe. Sure a camp hatchet for cutting twigs in the woods is fine, but they can be had for anywhere from $7 (Walmart Special) up to $50 in a fancy dancy hardware or outdoors equipment store. For that kind of money why would spyderco even consider making such a thing...start up costs to make one would probably be more than the profits could yield cause the average Joe is going to go to Walmart for a hand axe. Now a Tactical Hawk is another breed unto itself...I have several custom Vietnam style Hawks that cost me upwards of $500. To set itself apart from the others out there, all Spyderco needs to do is select a great steel combined with a great design to make it's mark. Wouldn't H1 Tomahawk do the trick I ask you? Tomahawks make awesome defensive tools. There are not to many people out there teaching the techniques and skills needed to effectively wield a tomahawk granted. But I think more and more will come out of the woodwork if better products were made for Tactical uses. I recently gave a workshop on the Tactical Tomahawk. Most of my students who took the workshop did not know what to expect. Most did not even entertain the thought that it could be such an effective defensive tool. They probably didn't even think about buying a real hawk for that purpose at all. I think most signed up for the workshop because I'm such a great instructor (shameless plug LOL). No really it was probably because it is not my run of the mill defensive workshops and most were curious. I had a custom tomahawk maker make us up some really durable trainers that not only held up well, but were strong enough to use as a defensive tool all by itself. I'll tell you what...after the workshop each and every participant went right out and bought themselves a Defensive Tactical Tomahawk style of their own liking. The comment I heard most from the participants were they never realized how versatile a defensive tool it was. Most did not realize that you could stab effectively with a Hawk, and that the heavy mass generates tremendous force that will crash right through the defenses of someone blocking with a knife, stick, cane, baseball bat and machete. They found out very quickly that the Tomahawk can be used to trap, control and hook their opponents weapons but also manipulate their opponents arms, legs, neck and even torso. They found out the the Tomahawk has the ability to rake,chop, stab, punch, hack, slice, catch, smash, rip, gouge, hook, slap, push, pull, hammer, to be thrown and cut effectively making it an awesome self defense tool in close quarter combat. Unlike a stick, machete, knife or even a bullet, one hard hit from a Tomahawk is enough to put even the largest man down for the count.
Those students walked away from the workshop with a new understanding, greater appreciation and a new found respect for the Tomahawk and it's abilities to be used to defend oneself with it.
If Spyderco wants to make a hand hatchet for the woods..IMHO nothing they could come up with would be real special or any different from what is already out there. Now if they make a superb Tactical Hawk (like I know that they can) they would blow away the competition. I for one would have one in my car, house,truck, boat, RV,...heck I'd buy one for every member of my family to do the same with....Doc :D

Man I wish I took that workshop...I'm envious of your students.

[Ookami]

Fullquotes don't make this thread, or any thread for that matter, easier to read. :rolleyes:

Replaceable heads like on the Strider CR Crash Axe, could provide the hawk with more versatility as there would be options for utility as well as tactical bits for both the front and back end. If it was to turn out that way, it would be useful to just use the same kind of attachment on both the front and back end, thus making it a modular system.

There would be a lot of possible configurations:
sharp blade/hammer poll - utility hawk
obtuse blade/stout spike - crash axe
blade with sharpened beard/sharp spike - tactical hawk
sharp blade/obtuse blade - Nessmuk hawk
stout spike/hammer poll - war hammer
obtuse blade/hammer poll - demolition hawk

You could also offer more utility or MBC variants as e.g. a kama blade, a hoe/adze, a spontoon head, or an ice axe blade. Furthermore you could offer handles in various lengths and variants: straight (thrower), straight with flared end (Nessmuk), ergonomically curved (utility chopper), curved with lanyard attachment in the middle (ice axe) and so on...

The problem I see with that is moving parts. The more you have of those the more complicated it will be to keep the weight and the price down, and retain stability at the same time.


Ookami

PS: I played around with MS Paint and added some sketches... :D
PPS: In hawk1.jpg "bolts" is supposed to be placed next to the small circles in the head, but I guess you will recognize them as bolts anyway. :o
________
Honda Cr125M Specifications

[skunk_2]

hello all, first post from a n00b! ive read thru this thread, ( tho not all of it), people seem really interested in a "tactical" t-hawk, with back spikes and the like, id like to see a real usable hatchet/axe! i have a mid size fiskars axe, 23-24 inches, and its a fantastic tool, up north, (im from canada) if ur an outdoors-man, a good axe is #1, over a knife even. it is by far the most important survival tool. an axe thats big enough to swing with one hand if necessary but can be used with 2 hands for serious cutting. could be a great addition to the bushcraft, just ask ray mears! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUUctg6dfk

[Farmer Brown]

...id like to see a real usable hatchet/axe!

Me too!

[Ookami]

I am with you concerning the utility aspect. Still, I prefer tomahawks over hatchets b/c of their light weight.

So a light SpyderHawk (pun intended :p ) with an easily replaceable synthetic handle fulfilling a utility and sports role would be awesome.

As was noted above: most tools can be used as weapons, but few weapons can be used as tools.

So my vote goes to tool hawk instead of tactical hawk.


Ookami

[anti-torsion]

I must say, Ookami has some serious MS paint skills!

[sal]

Hi Skunk_2,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

On the hawk,

Thanx for bringing the thread up again. I just pulled out one of the protos last week to hack up some limbs. We cut and burn wood at our house for heat. I also like to get first hand experience in the development of a design, be it breaking glass or MBC.

I appreciate the discussion.

While a tactical hawk wasn't the goal, I try to be open minded. What we were originally seeking was a relatively small outdoor hawk that served a variety of cutting functions bu optimised size, material and shape.

Since hawks are not my area of expertise, input is encouraged. the goal is to make something that performs exceptionally well for our customers.

sal

[JD Spydo]

Fullquotes don't make this thread, or any thread for that matter, easier to read. :rolleyes:

Replaceable heads like on the Strider CR Crash Axe, could provide the hawk with more versatility as there would be options for utility as well as tactical bits for both the front and back end. If it was to turn out that way, it would be useful to just use the same kind of attachment on both the front and back end, thus making it a modular system.

There would be a lot of possible configurations:
sharp blade/hammer poll - utility hawk
obtuse blade/stout spike - crash axe
blade with sharpened beard/sharp spike - tactical hawk
sharp blade/obtuse blade - Nessmuk hawk
stout spike/hammer poll - war hammer
obtuse blade/hammer poll - demolition hawk

Thanks for bringing up the STrider Crash Axe Ookami>> I pulled up that old article out of a 2005 BLADE magazine about that Strider Axe about a month ago and I even chatted about it over at Bladeforums with the axe & hatchet group over there. That STrider axe has a removable head made of S7 tool steel. I was told that S7 is an excellent choice for an axe, hatchet or tomahawk head because it is extremely impact resistant. That's also interesting that Mr. Glesser mentioned S7 along with 3 other tool steels in one of his earlier posts on this thread.

I personally like the concept of a removable head for several reasons. But mainly for ease of precision sharpening and having the option of putting another tool/head on the same handle. The STrider axe is rather pricey up around the $400 range but I've heard a lot of good about it.

It's an interesting topic needless to say. I hope it comes to fruition in 2010.

[Ookami]

@sal: Well, I'll try to contribute what I have found out about axes.

I want to start with two good sources on axes:

Weisgerber, Bernie ; Vachowski, Brian (1999): An Ax to Grind: A Practical Ax Manual. 9923 2823P. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, Missoula Technology and Development Center: Missoula, MT

and

Gr?nsfors Bruks: The Axe Book
... and some more under http://www.gransfors.com/downloads/index.html

Will post more tomorrow.


Ookami