H1Spyderco Machete?

[sal]

I'll suggest it to the management group. It might make an interesting "sprint". thanx, Vivi, for the heads up on the horn above the hole, we can soften that,.

sal

[vivi]

thank you Sal. After all these years, it's still incredible to me how receptive you are to our ideas!

[sal]

We try.

sal
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[Wartstein]

...
Unpopular opinion, and also not saying you're guilty of this......

.....but a lot of people confuse why SE often out performs PE for them.....with factory edges.

Many folks here confuse geometry for serrations being superior for certain tasks.

For example, cutting through small branches. That's a task I've seen brought up countless times that people say their SE knives do better at then PE.

I've tried the two edge types side by side....with the PE knife reprofiled to comparably thin geometry as the SE.

And with all else being equal, there's no real advantage for the SE knife.

Yes, serrations do excel at certain tasks. But if you take two enduras, regrind the PE knife just as thin as the SE, many advantages of the SE are now moot. Give the PE endura a really coarse edge, and, in my opinion, now the SE Endura is going to offer more drawbacks like snagging than advantages.

May not hold true for every use case but that's been how things played out for me.

That's why I almost never carry SE knives now, because a coarse PE knife does similar things (holds an edge a long time vs polished PE, grabs materials being cut and doesn't slip as much, etc.),without the snagging, being severely limited in sharpening tools, etc.

Firstly and on topic:
I'd never want SE for true chopping tasks but always PE, no doubt!!

That said:
I am sure that you are right in that much of the SE advantage over PE does come from the usually more acute edge angle of the former and not from the teeth themselves!

But when talking about a robust do-it-all EDC knife the thing imo is:
IF one gives a PE blade the same steep edge angle with which SE Spydies already come from the factory, the PE edge will be more fragile...not necessarily TOO fragile, but still MORE...
In the words of Michael Janich (https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... cycb2mvhza)

"chisel-ground [SE] edge is half that of a comparable V-ground edge. On a PlainEdge™ blade, that would leave the terminal portion of the edge extremely fragile and prone to rolling or chipping. However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong."

[vivi]

I've been running 8-10dps bevels on PE knives since the 2000's without issue.

Moras come ground around 11dps and I've never had issues batoning the crap out of them.

in theory what mr. janich says may be true but in practice for me PE durability has never been significantly worse than SE.

In fact for me it has been the opposite. I have damaged SE knives on things I haven't damaged acutely edged PE knives.

- Damaged a CE first run 154 Manix 2 slicing a 2 liter bottle in half. The bottom of the bottle damaged the serrated part of the edge.

- Damaged a LC200N Pacific Salt SE using the sharpmaker diamond rods on it. They chipped the edge.

- Bent the serrations on multiple knives like an ATS55 Endura 3 and the LC200N Pacific Salt using them as pocket machetes. Just hacking through briars and pinky thick branches on trials I use, something I do all the time with PE knives.

- Rolled dexter russell bread knives using them on plastic cutting boards

- Broke the tips of cold steel SE folders during normal use (to be fair that's probably due to their goofy serration pattern with many tiny tips)

SE has certain advantages to be sure, but for me, overall durability has never been one of them.

They are good at retaining sharpness when used on a damaging surface, like cutting steak or a ceramic plate, because the spikes protect the scallops. But I almost never cut things that way, so moot point for me.

That's why I said in this thread, based on my experience a SE chopper of any sort would be terrible. I'd expect it to be easier to damage, and I know sharpening out damage would be tougher.

An H1 PE machete I can definitely get behind, but one in SE? I'd pass.

[JoviAl]

Having tested SE vs PE machetes a bit more extensively since I last commented I can only agree with @vivi - the PE one is visibly better at pretty much everything. As some mentioned much earlier in this thread (think it might have been @zhyla if my memory serves) a machete is moving at incredible speeds at its tip when swung, so the advantages that I see in my JM2 (short, heavy, slow hacking) vs the massive blade speed hacking of a machete are two very different situations that don’t share many similarities in use.

My JM2 is more akin to a small, heavy bladed chopper than a machete. It bites above its weight class, but it is soundly beaten in performance by a long, thin PE blade swung fast.

[zhyla]

in theory what mr. janich says may be true

It’s not, and it’s only furthered the mysticism around chisel ground blades. The SE bevel is not “half”, it’s whatever angle it’s ground at. If Spyderco is putting acute includes angles on SE knives and obtuse on PE, that’s up to them and doesn’t have anything to do with the type of grind.

In fact for me it has been the opposite. I have damaged SE knives on things I haven't damaged acutely edged PE knives.

Yeah. SE is durable against wear in the sense that it keeps cutting even when very dull. But it’s made up of tips. Tips as we know get damaged easily.

I didn’t think swinging a machete full of teeth would make sense but there was some optimism earlier in this thread in terms of performance. It seems that did not withstand further testing. Science wins again!

[Wartstein]

I've been running 8-10dps bevels on PE knives since the 2000's without issue.

Moras come ground around 11dps and I've never had issues batoning the crap out of them.

in theory what mr. janich says may be true but in practice for me PE durability has never been significantly worse than SE.

In fact for me it has been the opposite. I have damaged SE knives on things I haven't damaged acutely edged PE knives.

- Damaged a CE first run 154 Manix 2 slicing a 2 liter bottle in half. The bottom of the bottle damaged the serrated part of the edge.

- Damaged a LC200N Pacific Salt SE using the sharpmaker diamond rods on it. They chipped the edge.

- Bent the serrations on multiple knives like an ATS55 Endura 3 and the LC200N Pacific Salt using them as pocket machetes. Just hacking through briars and pinky thick branches on trials I use, something I do all the time with PE knives.

- Rolled dexter russell bread knives using them on plastic cutting boards

- Broke the tips of cold steel SE folders during normal use (to be fair that's probably due to their goofy serration pattern with many tiny tips)

SE has certain advantages to be sure, but for me, overall durability has never been one of them.

They are good at retaining sharpness when used on a damaging surface, like cutting steak or a ceramic plate, because the spikes protect the scallops. But I almost never cut things that way, so moot point for me.

That's why I said in this thread, based on my experience a SE chopper of any sort would be terrible. I'd expect it to be easier to damage, and I know sharpening out damage would be tougher.

An H1 PE machete I can definitely get behind, but one in SE? I'd pass.

Thanks Vivi for your insight!

I must admit: You definitely have a ton
more experience with very acute PE edges than I do, so I am not in a place to argue with that.
I just know that my SE Spydies with their chisel ground comparably acute edge angels are plenty strong enough in my use...and I figure that Spyderco must have some reasoning and testing behind "daring" to deliver SE knives with a lot more acute edge angles than PE knives...?

But again: For a chopper I fully agree anyway: PE over SE, no doubt!

[sal]

I have a plastic model, 16" blade..

sal

[Wartstein]

I have a plastic model, 16" blade..

sal

Hear, hear!!

[JoviAl]

I have a plastic model, 16" blade..

sal

this is exciting!

[sal]

Now let's talk steel choice.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

Exciting… I would think something on the tougher side that won’t sky rocket the cost. Maybe AEB-L or LC200N?

[vivi]

H1 or 3V would be my top picks, but I'm open to any tough steel with superior corrosion resistance to the commonly used machete steels such as 1055.

If it weren't for the corrosion resistance concerns I'd love to see what you guys could do with S7.

[Fireman]

Now let's talk steel choice.

sal

LC200N is my first choice. Toughness close to 3V! A “Salt” machete makes for great marketing in a world of rusty machetes, offering something different and worthy of a premium price point. Second choice is Magnacut for obvious reasons but not as tough as LC200N.

Black coated “Salt” machete would be popular for military people too.

[SchoonerBum]

This whole conversation is amazing!

I’d prefer LC200N, H1, and Magnacut in that order - I’d be stoked about anything salt-worthy. I’d love a blacked out option also but I’d buy a couple either way.

[JoviAl]

If we’re going thin bar stock I’d opt for LC200N or Magnacut, whichever is more cost effective.

[Jeb]

I am fortunate to have been able to get one of Spyderco's Tomahawk and while it's in D2 steel; the really impressive thing it's got is the black coating on it and the freak'n grip.

Those two things are simply amazing. That black coating would be killer on a machete. Certainly would be more than welcomed on mine lol. I want mine black coated in whatever Spyderco coats these things in that stands up to the abuse like my Tomahawk has...

For as the steel, Dang Sal; you could have atleast give us some choices from which to choose from lol. Your like dangling the carrots in front of this jack-donkey here lol...

Since, you didn't your basically filling out the check for me to just sign I guess lol. So I want two coated black machetes with the Boltaron sheaths out of 3V...

I have already seen first hand here with the 3 different sizes of SE cuts on this test machete I did, the SE is not what you want in a machete, they just load up and don't cut clean through enough, and then just wear you down swinging and hacking the thing. It was really clear the wider the SE cuts got from each one, the better the machete did.

So a PE for me sir, now I will listen to your reason for whatever other steel you offer lol, but just know you asked first, my choice is coated 3V... I will sign that check too. Can I have them by Christmas?

[Bill1170]

What Al said. A tough and yet affordable highly stainless steel.

[JoviAl]

What Al said. A tough and yet affordable highly stainless steel.

I’m fundamentally open to anything that doesn’t rust and holds an edge better than the pot steel that stainless machetes usually seem to come in. 14C28N might be a worthy contender if LC and MC cost out to be wildly expensive for the quantity needed for a full sized machete.