Handle foreward Native 5

[Woodpuppy]

....
All that to say, I think the Native 5 may be perfect as is. It uses the choil to get you a full handed grip and is a useful EDC blade length, .......

The Native may be perfect as it is for many (and it is a cool knife indeed!), but I think the point of this thread is exactly that it does NOT (need to) use the choil to get a full handed grip:

The Native handle would be long enough already for a full handed grip even for really large hands, if it would NOT have a choil, but make use of the full length of the (FRN/G10) handle instead.
The choil actually forces a bit larger hands to use it, plus makes the handle behind the choil too short, plus reduces the cutting edge - somehow a "loose-loose-loose" situation.

What you say imho is true for SMALLER knives than the Native (Chaparral, DFly) - here a choil is great, cause the overall handlelength would be too short for a four finger grip. This is not true for the Native.

And in larger knifes as the Native choils can be nice again, since here the handle BEHIND the choil remains still long enough, so two four finger grip options are offered.
Native, Para 3... imho are the sizerange where a choil makes the least sense, but it does both in even smaller and larger knives than the Native.

You hit on the pair I was thinking of, Native and Para3. Because I feel a little cramped on the Para3 when I use the choil and ramp, I now see the benefit of the rampless design of the Native. I’ve never held one though, so I can’t say how it would work for me. I do have the Urban, and in this case the choil affords a 4-finger grip. But using the choil and the ramp my hand is cramped more than with the Para3. So I end up using it in more of a pinch grip. The larger knives work with the two positions well, for example the PM2. I can hold it like the Millie pictures above. But I still don’t feel good using choil & ramp together. The choil-less Seki designs have enough hand space to use the ramp. I wonder how the Rock jumper does in this regard?

It took the Shaman to show me the benefit of the rampless blade with the choil, which has in turn piqued my interest in the Native 5. Too bad I didn’t get a Knife Center CRUWEAR model when they sold slow back when, eh?

Wartstein, our differing assessment of the Native comes from our differing design priorities I think- you want to see a maximized cutting edge for a given handle size, and I prioritize a hand filling grip even with a shorter blade. The Millie delivers this for me, and it looks like the rock jumper and/or cliff jumper may deliver what you love. We’ll see!

[Gtscotty]

....
All that to say, I think the Native 5 may be perfect as is. It uses the choil to get you a full handed grip and is a useful EDC blade length, .......

The Native may be perfect as it is for many (and it is a cool knife indeed!), but I think the point of this thread is exactly that it does NOT (need to) use the choil to get a full handed grip:

The Native handle would be long enough already for a full handed grip even for really large hands, if it would NOT have a choil, but make use of the full length of the (FRN/G10) handle instead.
The choil actually forces a bit larger hands to use it, plus makes the handle behind the choil too short, plus reduces the cutting edge - somehow a "loose-loose-loose" situation.

What you say imho is true for SMALLER knives than the Native (Chaparral, DFly) - here a choil is great, cause the overall handlelength would be too short for a four finger grip. This is not true for the Native.

And in larger knifes as the Native choils can be nice again, since here the handle BEHIND the choil remains still long enough, so two four finger grip options are offered.
Native, Para 3... imho are the sizerange where a choil makes the least sense, but it does both in even smaller and larger knives than the Native.

You hit on the pair I was thinking of, Native and Para3. Because I feel a little cramped on the Para3 when I use the choil and ramp, I now see the benefit of the rampless design of the Native. I’ve never held one though, so I can’t say how it would work for me. I do have the Urban, and in this case the choil affords a 4-finger grip. But using the choil and the ramp my hand is cramped more than with the Para3. So I end up using it in more of a pinch grip. The larger knives work with the two positions well, for example the PM2. I can hold it like the Millie pictures above. But I still don’t feel good using choil & ramp together. The choil-less Seki designs have enough hand space to use the ramp. I wonder how the Rock jumper does in this regard?

It took the Shaman to show me the benefit of the rampless blade with the choil, which has in turn piqued my interest in the Native 5. Too bad I didn’t get a Knife Center CRUWEAR model when they sold slow back when, eh?

Wartstein, our differing assessment of the Native comes from our differing design priorities I think- you want to see a maximized cutting edge for a given handle size, and I prioritize a hand filling grip even with a shorter blade. The Millie delivers this for me, and it looks like the rock jumper and/or cliff jumper may deliver what you love. We’ll see!

None of the knives I was holding in my pictures normally feels awkward, although I was opening my hand somewhat unnaturally for photo purposes. I do agree though that the flat spine on the Native let's you choke up on the blade much more naturally than ramp or hump on the spine does. That big hump in conjunction with the lower choil was one of the things that struck me as odd about the Para 3 and the way it feels when you choke up.

Certainly a different strokes for different folks situation, I understand Wartstein's take even though I don't agree with it. Luckily there are plenty of great options to meet all of our preferences.

[Woodpuppy]

Exactly. Spyderco makes something for most everyone! Now to make it all in CPM-MagnaCut!

[anycal]

Looking forward to seeing what Sal had in mind.

Not sure how much that would change the existing Native. The choil works well on it. Today, I'd rather have more chamfered scales (inside and outside) than a something resembling the RockJumper.

[Wartstein]

....

Wartstein, our differing assessment of the Native comes from our differing design priorities I think- you want to see a maximized cutting edge for a given handle size, and I prioritize a hand filling grip even with a shorter blade. The Millie delivers this for me, and it looks like the rock jumper and/or cliff jumper may deliver what you love. We’ll see!

I don´t think so! While I tend to like longer cutting edges, I certainly don´t prioritize them in any knife at all. I really like the Manix as it is, or the choil in the Stretch 1 (that shortens the cutting edge too) for example!

It is just in the particular Native size where I think a choil makes the least sense:
Again, this knife WOULD offer a hand filling grip anyway, if just the whole available handle was used for that, even for big hands!
So if you look at that handle length, a choil is not necessary in order to provide a full, handfilling grip (like it indeed IS on even shorter knives like the Dfly or Chap). Actually, the choil unnecessarily makes the grip area on the (per se long enough) handle too short, so one has to use the choil AND has less cutting edge to work with.
If the Native (or a Native-like knife) had the "handle forward design: 1.) Still good four finger grip, here on the actual handle 2.) hand still close to the edge, like with a choil 3.) More cutting edge (but not more bladelength!), which would make the Native a lot more versatile

[pantagana23]

Does anyone have magical photoshop skills? :D

Handle extends back as long as it was "stolen from the front.

Blade is as long as can fit in the handle.

I have no idea where the pivot should be.

No choil.

Edit: original picture attached

[Woodpuppy]

^^that looks suspiciously like the Chief handle! :D

[JohnDoe99]

This is just my opinion, but if the handle were brought foreward and the finger guard as well, doing away with the choil, and a full three inch blade sticking out of the handle, with a full cutting edge, I think we'd have a winner.

It would ruin the knife.

[PStone]

Does anyone have magical photoshop skills? :D

Handle extends back as long as it was "stolen from the front.

Blade is as long as can fit in the handle.

I have no idea where the pivot should be.

No choil.

Edit: original picture attached

I like this! It reminds me of a Bob Lum design. The Onslaught. I would 100% be interested in something like this.

[Doc Dan]

The handle would be like this but it would be more slender like the Native and it would have a Native shaped blade without the choil.

[Wartstein]

This is just my opinion, but if the handle were brought foreward and the finger guard as well, doing away with the choil, and a full three inch blade sticking out of the handle, with a full cutting edge, I think we'd have a winner.

It would ruin the knife.

It would make it a different knife, but ruin it?!? :confused:
Just cause there´d be more grip area on the handle and a longer edge to work with?

[standy99]

This is just my opinion, but if the handle were brought foreward and the finger guard as well, doing away with the choil, and a full three inch blade sticking out of the handle, with a full cutting edge, I think we'd have a winner.

It would ruin the knife.

It would make it a different knife, but ruin it?!? :confused:
Just cause there´d be more grip area on the handle and a longer edge to work with?

The changing the Native 5 would ruin it for me.

But why the Native 5 has to change but more like the Native 5. So Yes a new knife.

I have big hands and do not get a full handle without the choil.

I get the whole premise of all your posts but let’s not change the Native 5

[JRinFL]

All of these threads should be requests for a new knife in an existing family rather that requests to make changes to an existing design. A new handle forward knife in the Native family? YES! Change the Native to be not-a-Native? NO!

[JohnDoe99]

This is just my opinion, but if the handle were brought foreward and the finger guard as well, doing away with the choil, and a full three inch blade sticking out of the handle, with a full cutting edge, I think we'd have a winner.

It would ruin the knife.

It would make it a different knife, but ruin it?!? :confused:
Just cause there´d be more grip area on the handle and a longer edge to work with?

The Native was intended to be a small knife used for precise cuts but which has more strength in it than the Delica (Delicate). Finger choils give you better control over the blade's direction. If you need a knife that allows you to have a comfortable hammer grip, which you would use for power cutting or stabbing, then you likely also need a longer cutting edge as well to compensate for the lack of precision from the power draw cut and stab with a hammer grip. In short, you probably need a bigger Spyderco knife.

There are two scaled up Natives now, the Shaman and Chief. I won't own either because of the remarkable price inflation but if you can snag one at a discount, those may be the knife for you.

[JohnDoe99]

accidentally quoted myself

[z1r]

The Native makes for the perfect Native. Changing it will make it NOT a Native. Maybe a Native Scout could be the one without a 50/50 choil?

Agreed, I like the Native the way it is. Got my first today in S35VN. The size is as large as I generally like in a carry knife. I can see why it has been popular for as long as it has been. I'm not usually a user of a finger choil on the blade but noticed that for some reason it feels like second nature on the Native. I like the handle size as is. But I like options, and could see liking a full 3" cutting edge with a little belly where the choil is and could probably like the same handle length but with the finger guard moved forward. I'm biased in knife size because this is as large a knife as I can typically carry on a daily basis, at least at work where I carry every day.

[Wartstein]

All of these threads should be requests for a new knife in an existing family rather that requests to make changes to an existing design. A new handle forward knife in the Native family? YES! Change the Native to be not-a-Native? NO!

100% agreed, and I said this in a previous post! While I really support Docs (the OP) idea of a handle forward Native, it should not REPLACE the current Native 5 (with its choil)!

[Wartstein]

It would ruin the knife.

It would make it a different knife, but ruin it?!? :confused:
Just cause there´d be more grip area on the handle and a longer edge to work with?

The Native was intended to be a small knife used for precise cuts but which has more strength in it than the Delica (Delicate). Finger choils give you better control over the blade's direction. .........

That makes sense! :) Certainly finger choils have the advantage over a "choil less" handle, that one can push back against the rear part of the choil with the index finger. This might (or will) indeed offer more control in certain types of cuts!

Also true that the Natives blade is technically stronger than the Delicas - though imho this plus in strength is hardly ever needed in a knife task, but the Delica is strong enough and a better performer due to its thinner blade (just my 2c of course!)

And: I can comfortably choke up on the Ricasso of the Delica and than also push back against the front end of the handle with my index finger.

[Wartstein]

It would make it a different knife, but ruin it?!? :confused:
Just cause there´d be more grip area on the handle and a longer edge to work with?

The changing the Native 5 would ruin it for me.

But why the Native 5 has to change but more like the Native 5. So Yes a new knife.

I have big hands and do not get a full handle without the choil.

I get the whole premise of all your posts but let’s not change the Native 5

Are you sure about this? I don´t have my Native 5 anymore, so I can´t compare, but I am pretty sure if all of the FRN/G10 handle length of the Native 5 would be shaped like a RockJumper, this would offer more grip area than a Manix or PM2 held behind the choil..

/Anyway, and as said already: A "handle forward" Native should of course only be an addition to the existing Native 5, or even a completely new model (like a humpless "Lil RockJumper")

[pantagana23]

All of these threads should be requests for a new knife in an existing family rather that requests to make changes to an existing design. A new handle forward knife in the Native family? YES! Change the Native to be not-a-Native? NO!

Exactly. The knife should be called Native Max :D