Spyderco Forums

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:31 pm

For me the tip geometry is my primary consideration when I think about hard use. Tough materials like reinforced hoses sometimes require some twisting, and I want the tip to survive binding without breaking. I wouldn't consider using the Watu for that, while the Shaman is perfect for it.

It's also one of the reasons I'm excited to see the tanto pm2.

+1

As I´ve mentioned already: "Hard use" (if there is such a thing or a definition for it at all) for me means above all not being able to be somewhat carefull (mostly because of working under time pressure). So you´ll have to stab into or through stuff in order to initiate a cut and then twist the blade, your knife WILL hit hard materials, and both will be most "dangerous" for the tip....

Hence one point of this thread: Does it make really sense that knives like the Millie are considered to be more "hard use" cause of their (for Spyderco) a bit thicker stock while still having that fine tip?
(Again: Purely seen from a "hard use" perspective! Generally the Millie design and its fine and very usefull tip are great).

I reckon “hard use” and pocket knives are a contradiction of terms.

this is what makes the se pac salt so perfect...

thin blade stock with a hollow grind and serrations. the hollow grind allows for a more robust blade all the way to the tip, creates less drag in materials, and still gives a relatively good slicing capability. add serrations to the mix and it’s a monster.

conversely, i was using my manix 2 lw to cut down boxes for recycling and it was more difficult to push through the material because of the drag created by the flat grind. and it’s not that it wasn’t manageable, it’s just that switching to my pac salt se was a much better experience for that job, even though i find the manix handle to be more comfortable. also, the blade was heating up on the manix from a few cuts and the pac salt had much less friction. that wasn’t a big deal for me, but i’m sure it could be an issue over a much longer period of cutting.

This is the primary reason I love the Manix XL. ~3mm stock (strong enough for a folder), a minimal taper and decently strong tip, and a wide blade with an extra keen primary grind to maximize cutting performance.

As far as using a knife for cutting tasks, the XL is among the best in Spyderco’s evergreen lineup, and cuts like a 4” Chaparral.

Anything that needs more durability than the XL provides needs a heavy duty fixed blade, or more likely, a different tool altogether.

Bottom line, there's hard use and there's abuse. Some people understand where that line is drawn and some people don't.


Some years ago this trend started where people want a pocket knife that can do jobs that a pocket knife has no business doing, with this hypothetical scenario where you're stuck without any other tool except your pocket knife, so you had better be carrying a folder that can split a car in half and breech a locked door or you're doomed or something I dunno.


On one hand, I absolutely love the idea of building a folder that rivals a fixed blade's strength. I love the engineering that goes into something like that. It has spawned some pretty cool ideas, but those ideas are really "solutions looking for a problem". I have a few knives like this, and they never get used, let alone actually carried for a whole day. They're a cool novelty but you won't see me carrying one around in my pocket.


There is a sweet spot between strength and performance and I think Spyderco nails it on the majority of their folders. I've done some pretty stupid stuff with this Caribbean, yet it still slices really well. I've batonned with an Opinel and a Svord Peasant and both handled it just fine without breaking. A big part of this is knowing how to beat on something without abusing it and being realistic about what a tool should be able to handle.

Let's say I'm trying to remove a bolt and just can't get it to break loose. I can put a 6 foot long pipe on the end of my ratchet and break the ratchet but that doesn't mean the ratchet is poorly made or "weak", it just means I'm an idiot and should have used a proper breaker bar. If a company decides to build a ridiculous over built ratchet that can handle that sort of leverage, does it mean the rest of the ratchets out there are suddenly inferior or "weak"? At some point a guy broke a ratchet and he said "hey I have this idea for a tool that is stronger than this ratchet that will work great for breaking bolts loose" and he invented the breaker bar. My point is, if you show me a job that is abusive and breaks your pocket knife, chances are pretty good I can show you a tool that's either designed FOR that job or would have worked better for it. It's not the tool's fault that it failed, it's your fault for not knowing the tool's limits.

I learned this quote (I’m paraphrasing a bit):

“Any folding knife, no matter how strong the blade or the lock may be, is a knife that, by its very nature, already comes pre-broken from the factory.”

Jim

James Y wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 pm

I learned this quote (I’m paraphrasing a bit):

“Any folding knife, no matter how strong the blade or the lock may be, is a knife that, by its very nature, already comes pre-broken from the factory.”

Jim

Exactly. The secret is, there's a fixed blade in every folder if you know how to use it

Evil D wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:04 pm

James Y wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 pm

I learned this quote (I’m paraphrasing a bit):

“Any folding knife, no matter how strong the blade or the lock may be, is a knife that, by its very nature, already comes pre-broken from the factory.”

Jim

Exactly. The secret is, there's a fixed blade in every folder if you know how to use it

Using common since is a huge factor here.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:31 pm

prndltech wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:22 pm

Ankerson wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:38 am

Contrary to popular belief, pivots are not the weak point in a folder. The blade or handles will always fail first and usually it’s the blade. So therefore a fixed blade of the same stock would snap at the same point as a folder. There are many fixed blades that would snap before an xm-18.

This is of course assuming we’re talking about well made knives with well made pivots.

This is interesting! I would have assumed that if the blade is buried very deep into material (so not much of the blade sticking) out and you´d then "pry" = put lateral pressure on the knife, the pivot would have a good chance to break... but that´s pure guessing, not backed up by any real experience!

I’ve broken some inexpensive knives doing this and I know I shouldn’t... but out of these, there’s some more suited for prying than others but I can tell you that all of them can take some serious use and what most would call abuse for a folder.
It all depends on who you are and what you do in life. Everyone’s different. Everyone’s work is different.
For instance if I’m doing construction or remodeling, then perhaps Socom Elite or XM-18 would be my choice. I myself am a master mechanic and have worked on cars my whole life to earn a living... I kept a brown FFG delica on my tool box for YEARS. I tried to see if it would fail just by being rough with it, doing whatever I needed to. It saw every chemical and cut various hoses and went though more “work” than I thought it could. I’ll stand here before anybody and proclaim how tough the delica really is. but here are knives that will pry with most reasonably stocked fixed blades and shrug it off. And they’re designed for it!!! Obviously there are super thick fixed blades that are just sharpened pry bars.

James Y wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:05 am

Yeah, people pry with knife blades all the time. Historically, it was extremely common to see so-called “traditional“ pocketknives with one or more of the blades having broken tips from prying. On the old TV show Man vs Food, I saw the host, Adam Richman, use what appeared to be a Spyderco Paramilitary (PM1) to pry clams open. When it would have been so easy to carry a basic SAK with a large screwdriver/bottle opener blade and pry with that.

Jim

Ha, my favourite is when you see a SAK with a bent/snapped tip on the blade from prying! When the slightest amount of thought applied to the task would lead you to use the flat head screwdriver instead. :D :rolleyes:

I gifted a nice damacsus gyuto to my dad a few years back, and when I asked how he liked it a few months later, his comment was 'it's not a very good screwdriver'. :eek: :D He'd snapped off the tip, despite me previously buying a cheap screwdriver and putting it in his kitchen knife drawer, knowing about this bad habit! :D

I do use my Pac Salt for prying shellfish etc. With my Dragonflies, PM2 etc, I sometimes use the thick portion of the blade up near the Spydiehole for light prying, when it's the only tool I have at hand.

Bloke wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:48 pm

I reckon “hard use” and pocket knives are a contradiction of terms.

Hard use usually means I'm looking for a fixed blade.

Funny as I was asked a week ago which folder I was taking camping by a mate that knows I'm a knife guy. My reply of "None" had him perplexed untill I showed him the 3 fixed blades I was taking.

standy99 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Bloke wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:48 pm

I reckon “hard use” and pocket knives are a contradiction of terms.

Hard use usually means I'm looking for a fixed blade.

Funny as I was asked a week ago which folder I was taking camping by a mate that knows I'm a knife guy. My reply of "None" had him perplexed untill I showed him the 3 fixed blades I was taking.

I have to agree, for "hard use" a fixed blade is ideal. I get into some messy stuff at work as I'm sure you've seen me post about. But, I'm definitely NOT able to çarry a fixed blade at work. Really, we're not supposed to carry folders either and only supposed to use those cheap Stanley retractable box cutters.

So for me, I base my daily hard use on what my folders can handle, compared to those box cutters. I'll trust any of my folders over those flimsy box cutters and never hesitate to do so.

Evil D wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:12 pm

Some people understand where that line is drawn and some people don't.
...
My point is, if you show me a job that is abusive and breaks your pocket knife, chances are pretty good I can show you a tool that's either designed FOR that job or would have worked better for it. It's not the tool's fault that it failed, it's your fault for not knowing the tool's limits.

I completely agree.
I will sign under every word.

They tried to open a coconut with this knife.
It looks pretty weird. Why didn't he use a grasshopper or a bug? :D

Higher wrote:
They tried to open a coconut with this knife.
It looks pretty weird. Why didn't he use a grasshopper or a bug? :D

This is one of those weird ones though. Because I will bet there are others out there who could successfully open a coconut with a pm2. Maybe not? Maybe I should try and get into some coconuts with some folders this weekend?

VooDooChild wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 pm

Higher wrote:
They tried to open a coconut with this knife.
It looks pretty weird. Why didn't he use a grasshopper or a bug? :D

This is one of those weird ones though. Because I will bet there are others out there who could successfully open a coconut with a pm2. Maybe not? Maybe I should try and get into some coconuts with some folders this weekend?

I could imagine that they tried to baton the PM2 through that coconut-shell perhaps?
Especially if the blade was not really perpendicular to the coconut, they used a heavy, hard oblect to baton and given how strong the comp.lock is: Maybe then the blade could break (before the lock)... ?

Though I DO (lightly) baton folder blades (lock disengaged!) in order to make kindling out of thinner, softer branches occasionally, batoning a coconut would be beyond any harduse I've ever done with a Spydie...

VooDooChild wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 pm

Higher wrote:
They tried to open a coconut with this knife.
It looks pretty weird. Why didn't he use a grasshopper or a bug? :D

This is one of those weird ones though. Because I will bet there are others out there who could successfully open a coconut with a pm2. Maybe not? Maybe I should try and get into some coconuts with some folders this weekend?

Please do, it would be interesting. I'm sure there is a right way and many wrong ways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Wartstein means that for any knife to be considered "hard use" the tip needs to be as robust as the rest of the blade. Or as some call it "reinforced". If that is what he means, then I agree. That would make the Millie a large folder and not a hard use folder, in my opinion. I'm not going to get in to the weeds trying to get a consensus of what constitutes hard use vs abuse as everyone has different opinions.

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:20 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Wartstein means that for any knife to be considered "hard use" the tip needs to be as robust as the rest of the blade. Or as some call it "reinforced". If that is what he means, then I agree. That would make the Millie a large folder and not a hard use folder, in my opinion. I'm not going to get in to the weeds trying to get a consensus of what constitutes hard use vs abuse as everyone has different opinions.

Yes, that´s indeed one of the sub-points I want to make! :)

In what comes closest to "hard use" in MY personal experience one in many cases could not really benefit from possible advantages 3.7mm stock might offer strengthwise over 3.0mm, if the tip of such a knife is comparably fine and delicate.

I guess my main point though is that in my experience the 3.00 bladestock of for example an Endura will hold up to any even just remotely sensible "folder hard use" anyway and 3.7mm is not needed.

So regardless if 3.00 mm stock like in the Endura or 3.7 like in the Millie family:
If one can really beat on a folder and use it carelessly (again, mainly under time pressure and by that stabbing and twisting the knife and hitting metal and other hard objects) is much more defined by tip strength and how thin or robust the very edge is, but NOT by the bladestock itself.

To be clear: This is NOT a critique of the Millie family knives and their rather fine tips, I lactually LIKE those!
It is just a consideration based on the fact that some people state that for "hard use" they´d choose knives like the thicker stock Millie over like knives like the thinner stock Endura cause the latter would not hold up to it.
That is something I can´t agree on based on my personal experience

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:20 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Wartstein means that for any knife to be considered "hard use" the tip needs to be as robust as the rest of the blade. Or as some call it "reinforced". If that is what he means, then I agree. That would make the Millie a large folder and not a hard use folder, in my opinion. I'm not going to get in to the weeds trying to get a consensus of what constitutes hard use vs abuse as everyone has different opinions.

Exactly...

Like this comparing the Military on the left to the CRK INKOSI on the right, rather large different in the tips. The CRK is built to take much more rough handling, and it really can believe me. The spine thickness is about the same..... But there is a large difference in the tips. Both knives cut pretty much equally IMO having used both a lot.