Spyderco Forums

elduderino04 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:08 pm

One thing to add to Vivi's and others' observations is heat treat. With these value-focused companies (which are often but not exclusively Chinese) not only do you not know for sure what steel you're getting, you also have no idea whether the steel is properly heat treated, which is perhaps even more important than the actual steel that's used. Of course, industry wide no one knows whether their knives have been properly heat treated. Aside from expensive hardness testing or extensive use, there is no way to check the quality of a steel's heat treat. We have to trust that the manufacturer did everything properly, in the same way that you have to trust that the company will be around in the future to honor any warranty (if there even is one). This trust is why there's a value to buying from legitimate, established brands, regardless of the company of origin. A value that is not accounted for in the handle material and steel used in making the knife.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Chinese knives specifically (aside from the fact that China does not enforce any requirements that the steel type cannot be mislabeled, in the same way that the US, Canada, the EU, and other countries do). I own several knives from We, Kizer, and Rike. They seem to be good knives. I have no reason to believe that the materials have been misrepresented, nor that they have been improperly heat treated. However, I know that they aren't pushing the boundaries of what the steel is capable of through their heat treat, certainly not in the same way that we know Spyderco and Buck do with their heat treatments. I also know that these brands (and others that continually are pushing for the lowest price possible, relying on the average consumer's ignorance) are not changing the heat treat based upon the intended use of the knife (certain applications need softer, tougher treatments while others require the opposite). This is what gets so easily lost by conflating knives with their materials. Just because I can get all the same ingredients as a Michelin chef, even if I follow a recipe for making the dish my end result likely won't be the same.

ChrisinHove wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:43 pm

Titanium? High strength to wieght ratio and spectacular corrosion resistance, but most important of all is it’s resistance to whinging about peel-ply g10.

knolan wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:37 pm

Vivi wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm

I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.

I too wondered the same thing about 30yrs. ago when I was USFC amateur bike racer just getting my first bike built w/a Ti frame. Rewarded with the most supple ride I'd ever experienced in a cutting edge light titanium bike, I started reading about Ti's properties and history, and seem to remember that it was one of the most abundant elements on earth, however, until that time (1989 or so) it was so hard to machine due to Ti's tinsel strength (it would literally stretch away from the tool trying to cut it), and therefore too cost prohibitive for many consumer applications to use.

Fast forward 30yrs however, and with the emergence of lower cost CNC machines and better techniques for machining, we now are inundated with Ti do-dads everywhere you look. I like Ti knife scales a lot, but have always felt this material only really shines in app's where it can withstand tremendous loads without breaking.

Vivi wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:04 pm

knolan wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:37 pm

Vivi wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm

I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.

I too wondered the same thing about 30yrs. ago when I was USFC amateur bike racer just getting my first bike built w/a Ti frame. Rewarded with the most supple ride I'd ever experienced in a cutting edge light titanium bike, I started reading about Ti's properties and history, and seem to remember that it was one of the most abundant elements on earth, however, until that time (1989 or so) it was so hard to machine due to Ti's tinsel strength (it would literally stretch away from the tool trying to cut it), and therefore too cost prohibitive for many consumer applications to use.

Fast forward 30yrs however, and with the emergence of lower cost CNC machines and better techniques for machining, we now are inundated with Ti do-dads everywhere you look. I like Ti knife scales a lot, but have always felt this material only really shines in app's where it can withstand tremendous loads without breaking.

I'm much more interested in Ti touring / road bikes than knife scales :D Or cookware / utensils for hiking.

I like FRN on my knives. G10 works too. I find Ti heavy, cold in the winter, and slicker than the former materials for a knife handle.

I don't recall the laat metal scaled knife I bought, barring multitools.

rgrad80 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm

$200? For g10 and S30v?

Jazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:32 pm

Here’s something. The Canadian place I order from raised their prices way up when the CBSA thing went down, and they’ve been getting knives in again, but the prices are still where they raised them to. Not to cool. Some really are ridiculous.

ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:18 pm

I would also point out that S30V and G-10 from company A, may not be of the same quality as S30V and G-10 from company B. Quality of the heat treat and proprietary heat treats are a big factor. Quality of the grind, and blade geometry. Quality of the materials is another. Craftsmanship of manufacturing another. Quality of design another.

sal wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:12 pm

Hi Vivi,

We seem to have similar tastes in many things. You will probably like the new FRN Police 4.

sal

Pelagic wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:44 pm

elduderino04 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:08 pm

One thing to add to Vivi's and others' observations is heat treat. With these value-focused companies (which are often but not exclusively Chinese) not only do you not know for sure what steel you're getting, you also have no idea whether the steel is properly heat treated, which is perhaps even more important than the actual steel that's used. Of course, industry wide no one knows whether their knives have been properly heat treated. Aside from expensive hardness testing or extensive use, there is no way to check the quality of a steel's heat treat. We have to trust that the manufacturer did everything properly, in the same way that you have to trust that the company will be around in the future to honor any warranty (if there even is one). This trust is why there's a value to buying from legitimate, established brands, regardless of the company of origin. A value that is not accounted for in the handle material and steel used in making the knife.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Chinese knives specifically (aside from the fact that China does not enforce any requirements that the steel type cannot be mislabeled, in the same way that the US, Canada, the EU, and other countries do). I own several knives from We, Kizer, and Rike. They seem to be good knives. I have no reason to believe that the materials have been misrepresented, nor that they have been improperly heat treated. However, I know that they aren't pushing the boundaries of what the steel is capable of through their heat treat, certainly not in the same way that we know Spyderco and Buck do with their heat treatments. I also know that these brands (and others that continually are pushing for the lowest price possible, relying on the average consumer's ignorance) are not changing the heat treat based upon the intended use of the knife (certain applications need softer, tougher treatments while others require the opposite). This is what gets so easily lost by conflating knives with their materials. Just because I can get all the same ingredients as a Michelin chef, even if I follow a recipe for making the dish my end result likely won't be the same.

In regard to heat treat, spyderco is behind Buck in terms of s30v and behind Cold Steel in terms of XHP. Kizer offers great s35vn under $100, and there are many other examples.

Spyderco offers much more than heat treat though. I'm a spyderco fan because of how many steels they offer (among other things).

Jazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:32 pm

Here’s something. The Canadian place I order from raised their prices way up when the CBSA thing went down, and they’ve been getting knives in again, but the prices are still where they raised them to. Not to cool. Some really are ridiculous.

sal wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:52 pm

Different strokes. Different levels of education and understanding.

I see a design like the Shaman as a physical embodiment of tens of thousands of years of history, hundreds of years of design and technology, 60 years of personal touch, the result of hundreds of hours to form, hundreds of hands and minds to build. Yeah, you got. "It's just a knife"

sal

standy99 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:24 am

Take my hat off to you Sal as your quote above is gold :spyder:

zhyla wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:21 pm

rgrad80 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm

$200? For g10 and S30v?

A BMW and a Hyundai are both made of steel, plastic, and leather. You're paying for the design.