Military selects Sig 320

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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#41

Post by Doc Dan »

Evil D wrote:
Doc Dan wrote:Another thing about Glocks is that the G19 is now the official pistol of the Navy SEALS, replacing the previous Sig 226. That says a lot when both the SEALs and Special Forces have taken to issuing Glock 19's and so have the Marine Raiders.

I wonder what the real motivation of that was. I know a lot of guys who carry 9mm are loving this choice because it makes them feel better equipped, since if it's good enough for the Seals then it should be good enough for a civilian. I'm a little guilty of that myself since I also carry 9mm. But, I also think it may be a sign that our assault rifles are far more reliable than in the past and the days of a side arm being used as a weapon are becoming a thing of the past, so I wonder if the choice wasn't based more on cost/weight than what the 19 is capable of. What I'm saying is, maybe pistols are basically an afterthought and the switch wasn't based on the 19 being better than anything else, but more based on cheaper guns and cheaper ammo. I hope I'm wrong with that but you have to wonder.
Side arms have always been secondary arms. They are less powerful and less easy to shoot well and less practical range than a carbine or rifle. However, the side arm still needs to function properly in all sorts of environments and be light enough to carry all day and carry enough ammunition to cover yourself in a desperate need. With modern ammunition, the 9mm is as practically effective as a 45ACP or 40 S&W. I know that will anger some, but all of these have been tested again and again, and real world shooting analyzed over and over. The conclusions are always the same. The new 9mm ammunition is not the same as the old ammunition; it is much better.

I knew a guy many years ago who was involved in fighting in the Philippines. I asked him what he preferred as he had access to all the usual military rounds. He preferred the 9mm to the 45ACP because it was just as real world effective and had better penetration through most things. I was reminded of the training done by Fairbairn where they placed a police officer behind a hand held metal shield and fired at him with a variety of handgun ammunition to get him used to being under fire. The 9mm hit harder than the slower 45ACP because it had more energy. This was true of the 30 Mauser and other rounds, as well. What I am saying is that there is a reason why the 9mm is the top choice for a side arm among those whose lives depend on the results (with the right ammunition).
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#42

Post by MacLaren »

I thought David meant motivation for going to Glock.
As far as ammo, its all about shot placement now it seems. And with the 9mm you get a lot more rounds than the 45 auto plus less recoil.
I would agree with Doc Dan.
However I love a 1911 45 auto too.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#43

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Do we know what ammo the military are using?
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#44

Post by OldHoosier62 »

Evil D wrote:Do we know what ammo the military are using?
Last time I was on the range with them it was still M882 124 grain ball (FMJ) ammo.

**To clarify, that was 7 months ago.
Last edited by OldHoosier62 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#45

Post by Evil D »

OldHoosier62 wrote:
Evil D wrote:Do we know what ammo the military are using?
Last time I was on the range with them it was still M882 124 grain ball (FMJ) ammo.
You sure that isn't just range ammo?
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#46

Post by OldHoosier62 »

Evil D wrote:
OldHoosier62 wrote:
Evil D wrote:Do we know what ammo the military are using?
Last time I was on the range with them it was still M882 124 grain ball (FMJ) ammo.
You sure that isn't just range ammo?
Just made a quick call to my ammo tech buddy at Lejeune and he verified that M882 is currently the issue ammo but did say that he had found during lot inspections that both 115gr.and 124gr. loads are in inventory under the same DODIC number and are considered interchangeable
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#47

Post by Doc Dan »

I believe they are now being allowed to use rounds that upset in some fashion, as well.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#48

Post by demoncase »

Evil D wrote:
VashHash wrote:I have trouble keeping up with the glock numbers

They definitely could correspond to similar models a lot more. It's odd that the 17 is larger than a 19 and a 20/21 are also larger. Why did they choose 19 for a compact size gun when all numbers around it are full size? They didn't plan it out very well way back in the beginning and now it's too late to fix it so they just throw numbers around. I'm constantly referencing their website.
They are Austrian and thus somewhat teutonic in their approach: It all makes sense if you think of the model numbers in sequence of release

- The Glock 17 was first in 82- and was named as such because it holds 17 rounds
- The Glock 18 was next in 86- the select-fire machine pistol variant of the above.
- Then in 88 they made the compact variant at customer request and (Being Austrian) gave it the next model number in sequence- Glock 19.
- The FBI were running their 10mm trials in 91 and Glock submitted a model- the Glock 20.

...and so on....They will keep counting up on new models until Glock 999 I reckon.
Being Austrian, I can't see them going back and 'ret-conning' the whole numbering series- that's not the way they approach business.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#49

Post by Bugs »

Evil D wrote:
OldHoosier62 wrote:
Evil D wrote:Do we know what ammo the military are using?
Last time I was on the range with them it was still M882 124 grain ball (FMJ) ammo.
You sure that isn't just range ammo?
Military has been using ball ammo for a long time. The theory is to wound and disable the enemy. It creates more chaos, havoc and manpower to deal with wounded than dead.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#50

Post by Doc Dan »

The military has used ball ammunition in an attempt to follow the rest of Europe in complying with the Hague Convention. The USA is not a signer of this Convention, by the way. The doctrine of wounding rather than lethality is tied to other issues.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#51

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My first thought was that hard ball probably works better if the enemy has body armor. Then you would want more penetration.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#52

Post by OldHoosier62 »

Doc Dan wrote:I believe they are now being allowed to use rounds that upset in some fashion, as well.
According to my contacts, SOCOM Forces , Ranger Battalion (depending on the mission) are the only ones authorized to use frangible ammunition at this time.

The Army has made mention that their intentions are to go to hollow point ammo once the 320 is issued. I believe that is being debated by the upper echelon of the Pentagon at this time. They first stated the intent back in 2015.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#53

Post by Doc Dan »

OldHoosier62 wrote:
Doc Dan wrote:I believe they are now being allowed to use rounds that upset in some fashion, as well.
According to my contacts, SOCOM Forces , Ranger Battalion (depending on the mission) are the only ones authorized to use frangible ammunition at this time.

The Army has made mention that their intentions are to go to hollow point ammo once the 320 is issued. I believe that is being debated by the upper echelon of the Pentagon at this time. They first stated the intent back in 2015.
Yes, I had heard hollow points were being considered. There are also other types of bullets that upset when they hit something or otherwise transfer energy through other means that are being looked at as well.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#54

Post by OldHoosier62 »

Doc Dan wrote:
OldHoosier62 wrote:
Doc Dan wrote:I believe they are now being allowed to use rounds that upset in some fashion, as well.
According to my contacts, SOCOM Forces , Ranger Battalion (depending on the mission) are the only ones authorized to use frangible ammunition at this time.

The Army has made mention that their intentions are to go to hollow point ammo once the 320 is issued. I believe that is being debated by the upper echelon of the Pentagon at this time. They first stated the intent back in 2015.
Yes, I had heard hollow points were being considered. There are also other types of bullets that upset when they hit something or otherwise transfer energy through other means that are being looked at as well.
Yes, hence my mention of both frangible and hollow point ammo in the previous post.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#55

Post by Doc Dan »

https://youtu.be/rf3COvN77Js

https://youtu.be/iB-aZYy2v2k

In the two videos the P320 did not like soupy mud.

Glock 17 for comparison: https://youtu.be/MYUz...dz_NnI&index=3
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#56

Post by Evil D »

This was the video that ultimately sold me on Glock. If a G18 can handle this, a G19 will do anything I ever need it to do.

https://youtu.be/ub4OswUhLwo
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#57

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They don't call them the Austrian Super Guns for no reason :D
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

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Post by wrdwrght »

The FMJ .45ACP was meant to penetrate the girding that the Moros used in the Philippines. It did so. For a non-girded enemy, this round could be lethal, given both the largish entry and exit wound that its unhindered penetration provides.

Expanding hollow-points are intended to lessen an FMJ's potential for lethality (entry wound only with properly hindered penetration) but not lessen its potential for incapacitation. With hollow-points, police and civilian self-defenders can better avoid both hurting innocent bystanders and committing homicide.

Regarding killing vs. wounding, has US military doctrine changed since I served during 1966-1969? Back then, it was search-and-destroy.

I can certainly see a role in SOCOM's exfil operations for wounding the enemy, thus causing some people to drop out of the chase to tend the wounded. The VC/NVA were masters of this practice.
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#59

Post by Bugs »

Evil D wrote:This was the video that ultimately sold me on Glock. If a G18 can handle this, a G19 will do anything I ever need it to do.

https://youtu.be/ub4OswUhLwo
Cool video, thanks for sharing. I like my Glocks even better now. :D
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Re: Military selects Sig 320

#60

Post by wrdwrght »

If I'm not mistaken, Glocks had the fewest user-serviceable parts of all pistol brands until the SIG 320's appearance.

SIG reduced the number of user-serviceable parts by gathering a bunch together in a user-swappable serial-numbered Fire Control Unit. This swappability opened the door to grip-frame and slide choices.

I'd like to see IV8888 do a 320 Meltdown. Then I might be convinced that the 320 is as reliable as Glock and thus worth considering for its tailor-ability.
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