Official Petition for a Premium Tenacious

[Evil D]

David, I am devoted to my Stretch and Delica and appreciate all the variations offered. Some are $200, some are $60... All great.

Those blue and green Tenacious exclusives sell out to this day. I bet a nice steel Tenacious will sell well.

Well, maybe and maybe not. I believe at this point a whole new model would be necessary to get what I have in mind because people just couldn't separate their minds from the original. Like the Shelby Mustang, they would still just see a budget knife and look at the price and start making comparisons to the Para/Manix etc. But, if Spyderco just calls it the "Facetious" and it only resembles the Tenacious in key areas then it'll probably get 10 threads started by people who can't wait for it to drop.

[Sirens1]

IMHO, the concept & execution of the value line is perfect. I think meddling with it would detract from certain endearing qualities. With that said, I would be on board for a limited, sprint-like edition. Damascus/carbon fiber?

[FCM415]

There might be some confusion. The intention is not to replace the Tenacious. The intention is to get an upgraded version.

Do you like your sprint PM2? How about your dealer exclusive Native? Do you value the upgrade from plain black G10 and S30v?

If we are honest with ourselves, in some ways, the Tenacious design serves as a better knife in use than many of the much more expensive knives that we buy from Spyderco and other brands. I prefer it to the Manix for example because of the bladeshape, edge grind all the way to the handlr, and simple liner lock. It def has enough of a following to have a sprint with better steel sell out.

[jmh58]

If we are honest with ourselves, in some ways, the Tenacious design serves as a better knife in use than many of the much more expensive knives that we buy from Spyderco and other brands. I prefer it to the Manix for example because of the bladeshape, edge grind all the way to the handlr, and simple liner lock. It def has enough of a following to have a sprint with better steel sell out.

This!!! :D John

[twinboysdad]

I know Benchmade has no relevance here, but they have no problem selling entry level Griptillians with plastic and 154, on up to S20v and G10 and beyond that their Gold class. There is a market for a nicer Tenacious, I would just hope the upgrades were significant and not just blade steel.

[Liquid Cobra]

I also recall Sal saying that the Chinese makers have trouble with the higher end steels. If it's true the Byrd knives with bd-1 are made in a different factory than the tenacious then who exactly would be making this upgraded blade? If they can't handle bd-1 then how would they work with s30v, S90V or something? So to get this done you would have to move the knifes production to somewhere else, again something Sal has said that he is prefers not to do.

And while I understand that plenty of other models have variants and do just fine, none of them are made in China budget knives. I think that's the difference here. Walmart probably has a say in this. Spyderco might not be interested. Who knows. It's all a guessing game unless Sal chimes in.

[Evil D]

My idea here wasn't even specially for a Tenacious per say, this model just has at least one major thing I love and that's the blade grind and how it meets the handle. There is no wasted space on the blade, you get the exact amount of edge as you get blade length.

I do love a choil now and then but this is also something I really like and along with that the ergonomics are simple, no forced finger grooves or crazy jimping. I love my Manix 2 but sometimes I want something more neutral. Aesthetically, honestly I don't even think the Tenacious is a great looking knife, it's rather plain and to the point but I appreciate form following function. Knives that lack a choil aren't exactly the answer either because a Delica/Endura have just as much wasted blade used by the kick. Liner locks allow you to bring the edge as far back as possible and I really like that. The right handle design can completely negate the need for a 50/50 choil.

[FCM415]

I am the same. I like and use choils but I am perfectly fine without one and the added blade is a plus. Edge all the way to the handle works well with liner and frame locks but with backlocks I like that safety catch for true one hand operation.

[f4mnect]

I joined this forum just to bring up this topic and the found this thread. I love my Tenacious, but wanted a better knife(better steel, better grip)So ordered a paramilitary 2. i still love my tenacious , but the paramilitary 2 just is not replacing the feel of the tenacious. I love the grip and blade steel of the paramilitary but love the feel in my hand of the tenacious.

[nick800]

I honestly can't think of why any fan of Spyderco would say "no" to this.

[IR192]

I think it's a great idea. I ended up giving mine away after moving to better blade steels overall. The recipient has been using it for half a decade now on his rural property and just loves it. Calls it his "classy" knife because of how the polished clip looks hanging out of his coveralls. :) After seeing how well the design performed, I looked into getting another for myself. Sad fact though is due to the exchange rate, the PE version runs $60-$80 in Canada. For that money I am most of the way into better knife territory anyways, so I hold off. If there were a sprint with better steel that brought it up to the $80-$100USD ($110-$130CAD) range, I would snap up a couple of them in a heartbeat...
IR

[sal]

Hi Acab70, F4mnect and IRI92,

Welcome to our forum.

Interesting topic. The Tenacious design is a very sophisticated design, despite it's apparent simplicity. Eric and I worked for a year on the design and it was created for a particular maker in China. We went through 3 locks before we decided to make it a Walker liner lock. It was created to provide our customers with an "affordable" model that we could make in higher quantities. We have been discussing with this maker other options in steel and locks and that discussion in ongoing.

Some makers in China have purchased equipment which enables them to do more sophisticated heat treat, and as they do, changes can be made. The Polestar is such an example. It will use BD1, as will its mate, the Alcyone. The use of more exotic steels will depend on the abilities of the maker. Keep in mind that the cost difference is more like 50% increase for BD1, which is not a "small increase" as has been mentioned. More exotic steels will have create increases. At what point is it no longer "affordable" for many?

sal

[mb1]

Affordable is a good question. Depends on the type of buyer I think. For knife nuts, $50 -$100 is cheap. For the the avg Wal-mart shopper NKP, $30-50 is high end, especially when they fill the shelves with a variety of $4 Chinese folders these days.

[mb1]

...and then we're a bunch of steel snobs too. So perceived value depends on the comparative price difference for the steel in different models (like the range seen in VG10). Value is not the same as affordability I know.

[nick800]

I'd happily pay $50-75 for the exact same knife with an upgraded steel. Throw in a different color G10, and they'd fly off the shelf. Heck, if you put something really cool in there, I'd pay $100. Based on GB2's selling for $135, I'd bet you could do M4 for around $100. That would be something!

I'd bet a sprint run of 800-1,200 units of any upgraded Tenacious would sell pretty easy.

Just for the record, I have a bunch of PM2's.

[Evil D]

Keep in mind that the cost difference is more like 50% increase for BD1, which is not a "small increase" as has been mentioned. More exotic steels will have create increases. At what point is it no longer "affordable" for many?

sal

This is why the idea won't work unless it's a whole new model, new name, etc. People will always associate the Tenacious name with being a value folder no matter where you make it or what materials you use. My original idea when I made the thread was to make it in Golden/Taichung and it not be a "value" folder any longer, hence the "premium" part of the thread title but I think that part was misunderstood.

[nick800]

There's a difference between cost and price. And he mentioned cost of one component. Not cost if the whole knife.

Keep in mind that the cost difference is more like 50% increase for BD1, which is not a "small increase" as has been mentioned. More exotic steels will have create increases. At what point is it no longer "affordable" for many?

sal

This is why the idea won't work unless it's a whole new model, new name, etc. People will always associate the Tenacious name with being a value folder no matter where you make it or what materials you use. My original idea when I made the thread was to make it in Golden/Taichung and it not be a "value" folder any longer, hence the "premium" part of the thread title but I think that part was misunderstood.

[Evil D]

There's a difference between cost and price. And he mentioned cost of one component. Not cost if the whole knife.

Cost of production directly correlates to the end price, they're two sides of the same coin. My point was just that any price increase on a "Tenacious" is likely going to be met with opposition (as this poll proves) and it would probably be far more successful as a completely new model made somewhere besides China that isn't still being marketed as a value folder. Despite the fact that bringing out an improved version with better materials is EXACTLY the same logic as a sprint run, which is almost universally loved by all, it seems that some people just can't mentally apply that same logic to a value folder even when nearly every sprint run costs more than the original. It's literally the same idea, but because it's a "value" folder people scoff at the idea. If nothing else this thread has been an interesting social experiment to say the least.

[jabba359]

There's a difference between cost and price. And he mentioned cost of one component. Not cost if the whole knife.

Good point. If the blade accounts for a $10 cost of producing the knife, stepping up to BD1 would only add $5 to the cost of the completed knife (I'm making up numbers here). As you point out out, it's not a 50% cost increase to the price of the entire knife.

I think most of us aren't talking about increasing the cost of all the components, but only the cost of the blade steel and swapping in a G-10 of a different color (which should have a negligible impact on cost). I think we'd be talking about going from a $70 MSRP to around $90-100. That lands us at a street price of $54-60. Not bad for a sprint run with a new color and upgraded steel.

[awa54]

Is D2 enough of a lift in edge retention over 8Cr to make it worth doing? The Chinese seem to have that particular alloy fairly well ironed out.