Spyderco Forums

GoldenSpydie wrote:As for the people saying that it will somehow impact the counterfeiters, I would ask you to consider this:

Alibaba already sells its counterfeit Spydies for ridiculously low prices--less than $30 for PM2s, etc. Fixed pricing cannot and will not affect this, as the bulk of counterfeit retailers are already selling extremely far below street price for a legit model. It also probably won't affect Ebay counterfeit sellers, because someone could pass off a knife as used to justify the lower price. Furthermore, why can't fake sellers just price the fakes at MAP? Fakes are convincing enough these days that people new to Spyderco might not question it.

Eli, you lost me @ Alibaba... :rolleyes: :p

But seriously, to answer you I'd say that MAP can & will funnel more buyers to reputable ( not necessarily more established ) sellers when the price becomes standardized and publicized.

I'd like to see Spyderco mount a marketing/PR campaign against the clone market to help further educate more naive buyers paired with the MAP initiative.

At any rate, it would do my heart good to see Sal rip those dirty rats a new Spyderhole one way or the other!

I purchase Merrell shoes for hiking and they practice MAP...I don't bother with eBay, or any other dealer...I buy direct from Merrell...they are well worth the money...and I don't hear about a lot of cloned Merrells stompin around-- so I think MAP can work, works for me at least.

Congratulations to all the whiners (Collectors of participation trophies, flipper haters, resellers for profit haters etc.), we are now going to pay much more money for a Spyderco. It's the only 'fair' way to go. :rolleyes:

I LOVE Spyderco.

I TRUST Sal & Co.

As a privately held company Spyderco has every right to enact a MAP policy without any input from any of us.

Unless you are a vendor selling Spyderco knives or a shareholder of the Spyderco Company you will not benefit from a MAP policy.

As a consumer you will pay more for Spyderco Knives.

Those that are not vendors, shareholders, or employees of Spyderco that defend, applaud, or post smiley faces about Spyderco implementing a MAP policy confuse me (unless you secretly are a vendor, shareholder, or employee of Spyderco).

Enacting a MAP policy will do NOTHING to stop the production and selling of counterfeit Spyderco knives.

I will continue to purchase Spyderco knives. See first bullet point.

This is really going to most affect high-MSRP knives like the Proficient, which dealers have a hard time moving anyway.
For example, I want to buy the Proficient, but my limit for spending on a single knife is about $250, so I'm waiting for it to go on 50% discount. It is less likely that I'm going to buy it at $294, and sounds like 50% off deals are going away.

It's pretty simple for me, if this move makes spyderco knifes more expensive than what I think they're worth I just won't buy it, I'll just wait and see.

This will have zero effect on consumers unless Spyderco has a way to track inventory and enforces those in violation of MAP. Without that the only people hurt by this will be honest dealers who stick to MAP. That's a fact. Here's the heart of the issue: Dealer price is half MSRP. So $50 on $100 dollar knife. So MAP price would be $60. So the dealer would gross 10% and after costs net below 5%. How many of you guys would be excited to be in a business with a bunch of picky knife buyers at below 5%?

The real issue though is this: Distributors(who get pricing between 15-20% lower than dealers)....They have been selling through fake names/back channels for a price a shipped cheaper than dealer price. Ultimately this is terrible for Spyderco for a few reasons:

1) Because the prices through these back channels are so good a lot more knives are sold this way which equals less $$ for Spyderco. Spyderco is making 15-20% less on all these knives.
2) These back channel sellers are volume sellers. Their service sucks, so the way the brand gets presented to the end consumer takes some shine off the Apple and perceived value of the brand.
3) This drives dealers out of the business of carrying Spyderco which has already happened a lot. Less dealers means less profit for Spyderco, less perceived value for the brand and a much narrower chain of distribution.
4) The more concentrated your buyer pool is they more power/leverage each of these buyers has to negotiate price with the manufacturer. So then Spyderco just gets pin balled around constantly beaten up by a few big players (Amazon...Big Distributors) on price.

The way things stand now, it'd be suicidal in the long run for Spyderco to stay on this path. I can promise you between the clones, government regulation and lawsuits that Spyderco doesn't make any where near the money most of you guys think. The smart path is for Spyderco to cultivate a deep and wide distribution through many many dealers and only a few trusted distributors, and actually take the time to police and enforce MAP.

GoldenSpydie wrote:As for the people saying that it will somehow impact the counterfeiters, I would ask you to consider this:

Alibaba already sells its counterfeit Spydies for ridiculously low prices--less than $30 for PM2s, etc. Fixed pricing cannot and will not affect this, as the bulk of counterfeit retailers are already selling extremely far below street price for a legit model. It also probably won't affect Ebay counterfeit sellers, because someone could pass off a knife as used to justify the lower price. Furthermore, why can't fake sellers just price the fakes at MAP? Fakes are convincing enough these days that people new to Spyderco might not question it.

Agreed, I fail to see how this will have any real impact on counterfeiters. I think most people buying them are ignorant of the fact that there is no way you could buy a PM2 for $30, they just think somehow they found a great deal. Or they don't care its a fake and think its going to be almost as good as a real one at a fraction of the price. And as mentioned the primary vector of these fakes is Ebay and sites like Alibaba who won't care about MAPs.

This move is concerning to me as I am on a budget and pick up a handful of Spydies a year. If increases happen at dealers like Cutlery Shoppe, it will affect my purchasing. As some have mentioned, Spyderco seems to continue pushing the price ceiling with high end models I already can't afford. If prices go up, I will have to reduce my purchases accordingly.

This is a real bummer. Currently the best vendors are selling for 45% off MSRP. Now if the minimum is 40% this essentially means that all Spydercos have gone up for 5%. Not a good move. Not happy at all.

JD

What I think would ease some concerns is if spyderco dropped the MSRP to something reasonable and decreased the percentage to maybe 20%.

If they made the MSRP of a knife like the military to something like $180, which isn't unreasonable, and allowed dealers to drop that price down 20%, people would get the same knife for the same equivalent price as now. Then price gouging dealers would be forced to be fair instead of ramping up and charging the current absurd MSRP.

Take bento box shoppe. They price gouge and everyone knows it but it's not really bad because they still charge under the current MSRP. Now people who know better stay away from them because they know the fix is in with that dealer. They monopolize a specific model, be it an exclusive or sprint run, and then gouge the **** out of the price.

If the MSRP was dropped and the the leash just a little shorter some dealers would have to charge a little more and some dealers would have to charge a little less and the consumer isn't taking an across the board loss. It'd even the playing field for everyone.

Right now the only one feeling the sting are the people actually buying the knives. Everyone else is getting something.

And again, a fixed 40% off absurd suggested prices is a no win for the consumer. 20% off a realistic suggested price is a much easier pill to swallow for the consumer, protects the small dealers, and protects everyone from price gougers.

The key would be for spyderco to be honest and fair with the MSRP. I honestly don't know if that's possible given the historical value they themselves have placed on their knives.

GoldenSpydie wrote:As for the people saying that it will somehow impact the counterfeiters, I would ask you to consider this:

Alibaba already sells its counterfeit Spydies for ridiculously low prices--less than $30 for PM2s, etc. Fixed pricing cannot and will not affect this, as the bulk of counterfeit retailers are already selling extremely far below street price for a legit model. It also probably won't affect Ebay counterfeit sellers, because someone could pass off a knife as used to justify the lower price. Furthermore, why can't fake sellers just price the fakes at MAP? Fakes are convincing enough these days that people new to Spyderco might not question it.

I think it will impact counterfeit sales, in that, making them increase. Now you'll have a small sector that will seek out a bugus knife, in order to avoid paying the higher price a the real deal.

I still wonder if we will get a response from Sal or Kristi as to how they expect a $94 increase in the price of the Chaparral 3 to go over with fans.

As for "just trust," I do trust that Sal will bring us great knives. But a nearly hundred dollar increase in some knives and thirty or more in others isn't setting a good precedent going forward. What says that January of 2017 MAP won't be increased to 70% or 80%? Absolutely nothing. Also, I seriously doubt that they will ever lower MSRPs--that would make them look like they are backing down. (Doesn't the 2015 coin say "Never Back Down"?)

In fact, Kristi said that most of the MSRPs will be not be raised, but from this statement, isn't it reasonable to infer that this year as well as in future years, some models will have their MSRPs actually raised, not lowered? (I know that this type of increase is natural, but when people think that they'll lower MSRPs, I wanted to point out that, in fact, the opposite is true.)

So I guess, in conclusion, we're supposed to feel lucky because they are only implementing one type of price increase this year on most of the knives. And we can also get warm-fuzzy feelings about stopping counterfeiters (unlikely to happen) and helping mom-and-pop shops, which, in my personal experience, typically sell at or near MSRP and will still be uncompetitive.

I promise that I won't go on about this too much more, and I still love Spyderco knives. I just feel disappointed that Spyderco has become a follower in the industry. Insert smiley face: :)

MichaelScott wrote:And, in response to the complaint about high MSRP. You will only have a valid argument if you can compare the cost to Spyderco to design, prototype, test, manufacture, advertise and distribute a knife against what you think it should cost, then you will have a discussion that can proceed on its merits.

What you think it should cost has no relationship to reality. 99.99% of the population have never brought a product to market. They have no idea what it takes to turn an idea in their head into a product in a consumer's hand. They may well think they do, but mostly they are wrong. That's why half of all new businesses fail.

Personally, I find the practice of a manufacturer dictating a dealer's advertising offensive. Almost as offensive as people buying products based solely on price. Caveat Emptor.

All I have to say is I hope the Nirvana comes out before January 1st.

Liquid Cobra wrote:All I have to say is I hope the Nirvana comes out before January 1st.

Seems alot of sites have it losted at 40%.....

GoldenSpydie wrote:I still wonder if we will get a response from Sal or Kristi as to how they expect a $94 increase in the price of the Chaparral 3 to go over with fans.

As for "just trust," I do trust that Sal will bring us great knives. But a nearly hundred dollar increase in some knives and thirty or more in others isn't setting a good precedent going forward. What says that January of 2017 MAP won't be increased to 70% or 80%? Absolutely nothing. Also, I seriously doubt that they will ever lower MSRPs--that would make them look like they are backing down. (Doesn't the 2015 coin say "Never Back Down"?)

In fact, Kristi said that most of the MSRPs will be not be raised, but from this statement, isn't it reasonable to infer that this year as well as in future years, some models will have their MSRPs actually raised, not lowered? (I know that this type of increase is natural, but when people think that they'll lower MSRPs, I wanted to point out that, in fact, the opposite is true.)

So I guess, in conclusion, we're supposed to feel lucky because they are only implementing one type of price increase this year on most of the knives. And we can also get warm-fuzzy feelings about stopping counterfeiters (unlikely to happen) and helping mom-and-pop shops, which, in my personal experience, typically sell at or near MSRP and will still be uncompetitive.

I promise that I won't go on about this too much more, and I still love Spyderco knives. I just feel disappointed that Spyderco has become a follower in the industry. Insert smiley face: :)

I agree with you 100% GS. I love Spyderco knives and the company but I am not drinking the kool-aid. I will continue to buy Spyderco knives and I am telling myself that Spyderco's distribution channels forced this but I am not gonna try to rationalize it and try to find the silver lining. It is exactly what it is and there is no point in sugar coating it. I am glad I have way too many knives already. :D It wouldn't be the worst thing if I slowed down a little anyway. :)

Do you care about Spyderco's survival as a brand? Without a healthy chain of distribution with broad network of good sellers this won't happen. There has to be enough profit in it for all parties involved to make it worthwhile. A good business relationship is about win/win. If it means paying a few more bucks to keep your favorite brand around would you think that is worth it?

GoldenSpydie wrote:I still wonder if we will get a response from Sal or Kristi as to how they expect a $94 increase in the price of the Chaparral 3 to go over with fans.

As for "just trust," I do trust that Sal will bring us great knives. But a nearly hundred dollar increase in some knives and thirty or more in others isn't setting a good precedent going forward. What says that January of 2017 MAP won't be increased to 70% or 80%? Absolutely nothing. Also, I seriously doubt that they will ever lower MSRPs--that would make them look like they are backing down. (Doesn't the 2015 coin say "Never Back Down"?)

In fact, Kristi said that most of the MSRPs will be not be raised, but from this statement, isn't it reasonable to infer that this year as well as in future years, some models will have their MSRPs actually raised, not lowered? (I know that this type of increase is natural, but when people think that they'll lower MSRPs, I wanted to point out that, in fact, the opposite is true.)

So I guess, in conclusion, we're supposed to feel lucky because they are only implementing one type of price increase this year on most of the knives. And we can also get warm-fuzzy feelings about stopping counterfeiters (unlikely to happen) and helping mom-and-pop shops, which, in my personal experience, typically sell at or near MSRP and will still be uncompetitive.

I promise that I won't go on about this too much more, and I still love Spyderco knives. I just feel disappointed that Spyderco has become a follower in the industry. Insert smiley face: :)

Hi,

We really appreciate all of the comments and opinions. It is appreciated. Also appreciate the "wait 'n see" attitude. We too are watching closely. As some have suggested, we are always trying to provide good product at a fair price. Our business chain is varied and global and this has been a major discussion for the better part of 2 years. We are very careful with major decisions trying at all times to find the "best, best" solution to an issue. We believe this will be a good move, and we appreciate your trust in us.

sal

sal wrote:Hi,

We really appreciate all of the comments and opinions. It is appreciated. Also appreciate the "wait 'n see" attitude. We too are watching closely. As some have suggested, we are always trying to provide good product at a fair price. Our business chain is varied and global and this has been a major discussion for the better part of 2 years. We are very careful with major decisions trying at all times to find the "best, best" solution to an issue. We believe this will be a good move, and we appreciate your trust in us.

sal

Lets just have some trust. Personally I trust Sal and gang enough that I believe that if they feel it hurts the customer they will make a change.

Crossing my fingers Sal, as always we appreciate your input. Trying to remain hopefully optimistic, but also thinking it's a good thing the Byrds are getting nicer...

Hi GS,

I guess I don't understand your objection? As mentioned, the change won't do much stop Alibaba, that's really a job for our government. It might help with "fly by night" companies that really aren't watching the market. It might also drive customers to our long term dealers that are more trustworthy. Some real low-ballers won't be able to advertise very low prices as lost leaders.

sal