Spyderco Forums

Does anyone have a photo with a Chap (1 or 2) beside a small Sebenza? I could not find one on Google Images.

I, for one, appreciate the machining and skill which goes into the design and might be willing to part with my Sebenza 21 in order to own the Chap 3. I suspect I would use the Chap 3 as often as the Sebenza.

bh49 wrote:You do not need very sophisticated, very expensive machine. Fairly good vertical CNC for about 100K can do this. The real complexity is in programming and fixturing. You need fairly high level application engineer to develop the process. I am not sure about tooling. May be you will need a custom tool, may be will you be able to use standard. This depends on design.

I doubt you would need a "high level application engineer" With CAD and the mirroring and copying features most 3D modeling suites have, I would guess that several designs were simply created and a favorite was picked. It would be easy and fun to come up with hundreds of designs by using all the different features modern CAD suites have. I bet it takes a really long time for each piece, and the tooling may be special. The fixturing should have been carried over from the second one, and a good deal of the initial programming could also be re-used from that run.

nccole wrote:I doubt you would need a "high level application engineer" With CAD and the mirroring and copying features most 3D modeling suites have, I would guess that several designs were simply created and a favorite was picked. It would be easy and fun to come up with hundreds of designs by using all the different features modern CAD suites have. I bet it takes a really long time for each piece, and the tooling may be special. The fixturing should have been carried over from the second one, and a good deal of the initial programming could also be re-used from that run.

Is this coming from your personal real life experience or what you read in the books about the topic?
Also, if you quote me for argument, please quote completely. I said "fairly high level of application engineer".

It was not an easy project to pull off. Both the "2" & "3" involved fairly complicated machining and the designs themselves took quite some time to develop. It's easy to look at the finished piece and see how it was done, but the development and doing are another story. Wonder how many custom guys could even do this and what they would charge. We can only make about 10 per day. BTW, there are no curved lines in the "3". All the machining is done with straight cuts.

sal

bh49 wrote:Is this coming from your personal real life experience or what you read in the books about the topic?
Also, if you quote me for argument, please quote completely. I said "fairly high level of application engineer".

This is coming from experience. Not direct experience with knives, but in general. I have an MET from Purdue and experience with various CAD software suites and CNC programming, and the communication between the two. Time consuming yes, but not genius level stuff. Anybody with some CAD background and some CNC background could handle it. I am not trying to discount the hard work and time that went into the project. I would be **** proud of it, but this isn't designing a high pressure boiler with all the considerations that would go into that project. It really wouldn't take an engineer to do this, but really just anyone with CAD knowledge, and experience with what you can and cannot do in manufacturing. That is one of the hardest parts about CAD. It takes good communication between designer and technician and experience on the designer's behalf to know that you can make anything you want in CAD, but the machine shop cannot always do what you want. I am sure obstacles were overcome that your average machine shop and the supporting engineers would not encounter.

I remember Michael Janich chiming in on the Chap 3 price thread and mentioned that the price is based on "machine time" and that it takes the machine a while to produce/machine the scales.

nccole wrote:This is coming from experience. Not direct experience with knives, but in general. I have an MET from Purdue and experience with various CAD software suites and CNC programming, and the communication between the two. Time consuming yes, but not genius level stuff. Anybody with some CAD background and some CNC background could handle it. I am not trying to discount the hard work and time that went into the project. I would be **** proud of it, but this isn't designing a high pressure boiler with all the considerations that would go into that project. It really wouldn't take an engineer to do this, but really just anyone with CAD knowledge, and experience with what you can and cannot do in manufacturing. That is one of the hardest parts about CAD. It takes good communication between designer and technician and experience on the designer's behalf to know that you can make anything you want in CAD, but the machine shop cannot always do what you want. I am sure obstacles were overcome that your average machine shop and the supporting engineers would not encounter.

It sounds like your and my experience are quite different. Even in recent years I saw small to medium size machine shops, when CNC programmers do not use CAD/CAM. These companies just do not have software. Programs are not written in big volume, so it will take forever until software would pay for itself. For the cost of the good package like ProE, shop can buy another decent machine, which will cut chips. The company I am working for doesn't have customers in knife industry, but we have quite a few in guns. Some prints we are working with possibly older than you are and do not exist in electronic format. Some of these prints belong to top tier companies of that industry. Without computer aid programmer need to have quite different set of skill, also this makes his task a little harder. Also I really cannot find, where I was talking about genius.

Is this a Sprint/LE or regular production knife?

notos&w wrote:Does anyone have a photo with a Chap (1 or 2) beside a small Sebenza? I could not find one on Google Images.

Here are a couple quick pics of the Chaparral 2 next to a small Sebenza 21.

Thank you gbelleh.

Philo Beddoe wrote:Is this a Sprint/LE or regular production knife?

Should be regular production, but very limited. As Sal mentioned, they can only make 10 a day. Due to the price, I'd also assume that Spyderco would keep initial production low until they get a feel for market demand..

Yeah, one of those extremely hard to find, rarely in stock regular production items like the fluted Ti Native and Millie, although I suspect demand for these latter two would be much higher and their price point a tad more reasonable (and perhaps a little easier to swallow when considering the heft of these knives and blades in hand). Very attractive design though, maybe with a discount coupled to another discount at some point might bring it into sanity range of bringing one into the flock. For now, I'll need to see a lot more pics first... Curious to really see what they'll do for the Chap 4, as they obviously couldn't continue with the upward trend in higher intricacy/lower output capacity/higher pricing.

gbelleh wrote:Here are a couple quick pics of the Chaparral 2 next to a small Sebenza 21.

Now, I am a True Spyder-holic, but I will ask you all this: am I missing anything really if I never buy one of these Chris Reeve jobs? Will I really notice a difference in build/quality associated with their higher price point? Plus, what the heck is that little blue thing on the blade? I have a hundred Spydercos on my list before this, but are they really all they are hyped up to be? Not trying to troll, flame or whatever, just looking for some quick thoughts on this... Thanks!

You need to check some CRKs out for yourself to decide if they float your boat. The quality is definitely first rate. Fit and finish are consistently excellent in every way. I find these details and quality levels worth the asking price. But they're still just knives, and don't really do anything a Spyderco can't. To me, the Techno is the closest thing to a small Sebenza in the Spyderco lineup. Very similar perceived quality, but the Techno is half the price.

Chris Reeve consistently maintains a very high quality/close tolerance product. Difficult to do year after year for decades.

sal

I fully understand, and thanks for replying Sal. They are certainly attractive in their own solid-bladed, no holed way. You certainly have much to speak of continued years of product excellence and achieving close tolerances yourself, and we appreciate your humility in such matters :) . As for the Techno, I just raved about it in the how many knives do you EDC thread! What a great one, snuck up on me as a major win, thanks Sal, Martin and co.

RadioactiveSpyder wrote:Now, I am a True Spyder-holic, but I will ask you all this: am I missing anything really if I never buy one of these Chris Reeve jobs? Will I really notice a difference in build/quality associated with their higher price point? Plus, what the heck is that little blue thing on the blade? I have a hundred Spydercos on my list before this, but are they really all they are hyped up to be? Not trying to troll, flame or whatever, just looking for some quick thoughts on this... Thanks!

Years ago, I had a Sebenza. Not worth the coin FOR ME. The knife is not very ergonomic either, as you can see by the pick. It just never felt right in my hand and was way overpriced IN MY OPINION.

this_is_nascar wrote:Years ago, I had a Sebenza. Not worth the coin FOR ME. The knife is not very ergonomic either, as you can see by the pick. It just never felt right in my hand and was way overpriced IN MY OPINION.

I kindly disagree if you are making this statement for everyone. A straight handled knife is very ergonomic for cutting tasks. Look at all the Chef's knives which are used continually. When you add a lot of curves, finger grooves, etc.. you are likely alienating more hands than a straight handle would. Thankfully variety is abundant.

I agree. I like the Sebenza's ergos very much.

I'm pretty sure I said FOR ME at least a couple times.