Spyderco Forums

Sigh, a public announcement turned into a "it's too expensive" thread.

Respect Sal enough to let the announcement ring true. They just bit off a huge expense and now is not the time nor the thread. You don't make an announcement about how much you disliked a family member at the funeral.

As for the Mora comment. Well go buy one. I hear good things about them from an utility aspect...but I have far too much pride to own knives with plastic handles and sheaths.

I'd rather pay $150 (or 3 nice dinners for 2) for a wood handled/leather sheath Bushcraft or twice that for a custom that is hardly better. Why? Because *if* they find my body in the woods I don't want to look like a chump. :)

My hat off to you Sal and team. Great effort and shame with the luck. Thanks for trying new things for niche audiences and taking the flak for it from the masses. The more civilized audiences appreciate it. In fact, most of the people on British Blades were very impressed from what I saw.


PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushcraft

It's not an American concept and prob the reason we don't "get it". If they had 30,000 knives made specifically for the USA market your assessment would be correct. It, like many Spyderco knives, were made in smaller batches for a niche audience.

I am sorry that the bushcraft didn't work out. I was really excited about it coming out but didn't get around to picking one up yet. Is there anyway they can be salvaged into the "NASA" version that was talked about? Maybe add a synthetic sheath and scales? I still think the bushcraft is a great idea.

4077th wrote:...As unfair as it may be to compare it to an eight dollar Mora, that's exactly what the "buyer" is gonna do...

No I'm not ...

sal wrote:Hi 4077th,

I'll try to answer your question.

Spyderco operates on relatively fixed margins. We take all of the costs to produce a model, add our margin, which is relatively small and establish our MSRP. Distibutors and dealers margins are also included in that MSRP.

This model was expensive to make. The price established is based on the cost. Because you cannot see the cost, doesn' mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

To compare our Bushcraft model to a Mora is, in my opinion, somewhat ignorant. Kind of like comparing an expensive Spyderco model an inexpensive Wal-mart Chinese knife, or comparing a Honda to a Ferrari. you might also say the Ferrari is overpriced, but to those that can see the value, it is not.

Both the inexpensive knife and the Honda "will do the same thing", but there is a large difference in the way they do it.

I hope that helps in your understanding.

sal

Sorry Sal, it didn't help me in my understanding.
Honda won't do the top speed or acceleration of Ferrari. So, in similar fashion, what are strong points of the Bushcraft?

I as a customer see, e.g. here, plenty of similar knives, with wood handles, leather sheaths, made in way smaller runs (often singly) and by US knifemakers, which I think represent more expensive labour force. Yet, I often see prices at, or even lower than Bushcraft (e.g. this one is even the same steel, and integral on top of that, sold for $175).
Then there is ton of manufacturers of various Finnish knife patterns (e.g. one roughly similar) who offer similar patterns for less.

So, what is the unique selling proposition of the Bushcraft? I do not see it.

Because you cannot see the cost, doesn' mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

I do not have problem believing you it was expensive to make. That, however, is not sufficient to explain why people should reconsider their view of the product as too expensive, too cheap or appropriately priced. Why? Let me introduce an example - it would take me many many hours trying to sew shoes (or make a knife for instance), as I do not have any experience in it and do not even own proper tools for it. Even if I drew relatively low wage, it would constitute high production costs, ergo made the product expensive.
The cost would be there. But the value probably not... I would have hard time selling my product at more than my competitors based only on the fact, that it cost me a lot to make it in the first place - because there are already others who can make the same product for lower price, or better product for the same price.

I am not trying to say the Bushcraft is not competitive. It very well may be.

I just see Buschraft's price point and when I compare it with all other choices (knives for the same price, or very similar knives for way less) I just do not see any competitive advantage. So, in short, why should I buy Bushcraft?

Sal,

I am truly sorry to hear about the handle problem.

never try, never win is a good motto.

I applaud you and your team for being innovative, sometimes risks unfortunately fail in spite of the best precautions.

skatenut wrote:Sal,

I am truly sorry to hear about the handle problem.

never try, never win is a good motto.

I applaud you and your team for being innovative, sometimes risks unfortunately fail in spite of the best precautions.

+1 Exactly, well put skatenut.

sal wrote:I regret to inform you that the Bushcraft UK models just introduced by Spyderco are no longer shipping.

Sal, you and Spyderco are class all the way!

Bushcraft was not one of those on my radar but it seemed like a great project. I know how I've felt when such things beyond my control happen and I'm very sorry for the troubles you've had on this one.

Please have a happy and blessed Christmas!

Ken

edit: .................

sal wrote:I regret to inform you that the Bushcraft UK models just introduced by Spyderco are no longer shipping.

I'm sorry to hear about the issues with the Bushcraft. While I may or may not have ended up buying one, I thought it was truly a beautiful piece and one that would make your target ELUs proud. Let us know what you end up deciding to do with it or if we can give any useful feedback, and I wish you the best of luck in making the most of what is surely a frustrating turn at this point in time.

A fan for life,
Kris

sal wrote: At this time, we don’t yet know what we are going to do with the 1000+ finished pieces that will more than likely all crack.

Sal

As I'm sure you can appreciate, those of us in the process of purchasing one of these knives that are already in the supply chain are in need of a timely decision regarding how Spyderco is planning to proceed - so that we can decide how to proceed. As much as I am looking forward to this knife, I don't want to take delivery of a knife that has a high likelihood of developing a significant defect

I'm sure problems like this are every businesses nightmare and I wish you only the best.

Im sorry that this knife didn't work out, Sal and Spyderco. Not really my thing but I know that there were plenty of people here interested in it. Hopefully you'll find something to do with the parts in order to salvage what's left of the project.

huugh wrote:I just do not see any competitive advantage. So, in short, why should I buy Bushcraft?

The answer of course is that you shouldn't. The reason Spyderco manufactures in the hundreds or thousands instead of the millions is because most people share your point of view. Buy a cheaper knife with good functionality, there's nothing wrong with that. Some of us are glad to have the choice of paying a higher price for higher functionality and beauty. You make your choice; I make mine. Why complain about the price of something you don't even want or need, since you are perfectly happy with the cheaper alternatives? Your opinion is neither right nor wrong, but expressing it in the context and manner that you and 4077th have chosen is rude and offensive.

huugh wrote:Sorry Sal, it didn't help me in my understanding.
Honda won't do the top speed or acceleration of Ferrari. So, in similar fashion, what are strong points of the Bushcraft?

So, what is the unique selling proposition of the Bushcraft? I do not see it.

So, in short, why should I buy Bushcraft?

Actually Huugh, the same could be said of just about any product, a cheap but quality Ibanez guitar will do the same thing as a Paul Reed Smith top of the line guitar, play music in tune, what you pay for is the wood, the build quality and the PRS on the head stock.

A cheap Timex or Seiko is just as functional as a top of the line Rolex or Omega.

Given my choice and the wherewithal, I am not buying a Timex but a Rolex, not an Ibanez but a Paul Reed Smith.

In fact what you say is true of just about any Spyderco knife, why buy an Endura when you could buy a cheaper yet functional and great quality Byrd knife?

Different strokes...if the Bushcraft doesn't appeal to you, then fine, on the other hand there are people who will buy the knife because of the steel, the looks or the Spyderco branding.

Just think about it this way, I have bought Ramirez classicals, Music Man guitars etc. that I will be proud to pass on to my son. If the Bushcraft had worked out, would you rather pass that or a Mora on to your son?

Sequimite wrote:The answer of course is that you shouldn't.

I seriously doubt that is the answer, because what you suggest is that company should not try to sell its products. Hardly a business model, isn't it? :confused:

Sequimite wrote: Some of us are glad to have the choice of paying a higher price for higher functionality and beauty.

Well, that (the reasons why to pay the (relatively) high price) is what am I trying to find out.
For you, it is beauty and higher functionality, right?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Brand name might be another consideration. I am fine with these.
But what exactly do you consider as "higher functionality" of the Bushcraft?

No, what he meant was you specifically shouldn't buy this specific model.

In essence, bushcraft is a British sport. Some even admit this. The Spyderco Bushcraft was designed largely by and specifically for those who participate in that sport. It is what they wanted. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else. Trap shooters will spend thousands of dollars on a custom made shotgun that does exactly the same thing a Remington 870 from Wal Mart does - throw a charge of shot at high speed. Why? Don't ask me, I'm not a trap shooter. I just know they do because I've seen it happen. And most of those people wouldn't be caught dead using anything less than their Purdy or Ludik shotgun.

I hate to see problems like this happen, and I hope Sal finds a way ro recover at least some of the investment. I'm not a Bushcrafter and fall into the "I don't get it" group. The design and features frankly leave me cold, but I would buy one anyway, knowing the handle will crack just to help out a great guy.

Sal, very sorry the problems cropped up with the wood. Sounds like y'all got sold non-stabilized wood. Hector's right--properly stabilized wood is, well, impervious to nearly everything-even my dishwashing machine!

I second the hope that there will be some way to salvage the knife. Even if it does not involve wood scales.

Sequimite wrote:

huugh wrote:So, in short, why should I buy Bushcraft?

The answer of course is that you shouldn't. The reason Spyderco manufactures in the hundreds or thousands instead of the millions is because most people share your point of view. Buy a cheaper knife with good functionality, there's nothing wrong with that.

huugh wrote:

Sequimite wrote:

huugh wrote:So, in short, why should I buy Bushcraft?

The answer of course is that you shouldn't.

I seriously doubt that is the answer, because what you suggest is that company should not try to sell its products. Hardly a business model, isn't it? :confused:

No, it's a **** good answer. At least when you don't cut out the next two sentences which explains the first.

No single product can satisfy both those looking for the cheapest effective solution to a problem and those willing to pay for esthetics, materials, or even just a "name". I'm that way with watches. A $50 Timex makes sense to me, a $5,000 Rolex does not, but I'd never have the poor taste to question why Rolex wants to build such expensive watches, or why someone would choose to purchase one. Take pens, what will a Mont Blanc ballpoint do that a Bic will not? Does that mean Mont Blanc owes you an explanation? The Bushcraft is far from the first Spyderco product you have decided is overpriced or in some other way not up to your expectations, perhaps they're just out of your league, as Rolex watches are out of mine.

huugh wrote:I seriously doubt that is the answer, because what you suggest is that company should not try to sell its products. Hardly a business model, isn't it? :confused:

You obviously don't have much business background. I'm a CPA and have owned several businesses. I can assure you that most successful businesses address particular target markets. Sal talks about this all the time. Being everything to everyone is a recipe for disaster.

Hookpunch wrote:a cheap but quality Ibanez guitar will do the same thing as a Paul Reed Smith top of the line guitar

This made me chuckle. I used to play a 1958 Gibson 335. Now I play an Ibanez Roadstar II.

edit - If you'd like to see my old guitar watch G. E. Smith in old Saturday Night Live reruns. The tobacco sunburst 335 he uses is the one he got from me.

Sequimite wrote:Your opinion is neither right nor wrong, but expressing it in the context and manner that you and 4077th have chosen is rude and offensive.

I agree completely. Huugh, if you want to debate the financial merits of the Bushcraft project, start a different thread. Your argumentative tone is really inappropriate for this thread. :rolleyes:

I bet the Bushcraft would make a great PB&J knife. :D Maybe Spyderco can work on that concept with the blade blanks.