Spyderco Best Self defense Model ?

[zenheretic]

You are all mall ninjas!

We true Ninjas do not worry about simple thugs, pirates, rag-a-muffins, scalawags, thieves, pickpockets, or nare-do-wells. Running from tree top to tree top and roof top to roof top eliminates such mundane concerns.

Somebody must have let Denn out of his cage for the Thanksgiving holidays.

[Zac]

[quote="denn"]the one and only right answer is: Military, and none other. after having read countless books and articles on knife-combat (it's lethal combat, not 'fighting', remember that, knifing can be fatal, drawing a knife to defend yourself is your last-ditch resort, short of drawing a gun obviously...)

military: 4" blade for effective stabbing, slashing and intimidation-factor, 14mm round hole and liner-lock for fast deployment, G10 scales for grip, lightweight for speed and well balanced for accuracy.

common sense disclaimer:

carrying a knife for self-defense is actually not a very good idea, because the likelihood will increase that you will indeed draw it in any endearing situation you experience as threatening. remember, using a knife for SD is lethal force, and should basically be avoided, or....in a very, very serious situation when you must use your blade to save your or someone elses life, stab or slash once to non-lethal areas and try to take a run for it and escape the situation. if possible it's always better to avoid confrontations by simple avoidance or running away. don't let your pride override your common sense. running away from a 'fight' is not cowardly]

1) Reading books are very different than having the actual combat. As far as the importance of stabbing, I will always debate on this. Knife fighting is indeed fatal, but a good defender will not suffer a fatality.
2) The Military is a flat grind...it is not a good slicer and in the event of SD, a liner lock usually falls short to the backlock and obviously a fixed blade due to the possibility of accidental disengagement. I carry a Military but in the event of self defense, I will be deploying a Civilian or Matriarch.
3) I agree with you on the lethal force part...knife combat is very personnel as you are personally carving your opponent up and with the right tool, will literally dismember them. For any sensible person to willingly do this, the situation has to be very bad.
4) Calling the members here mall ninjas is pretty low...especially since there are members here who have personally used blades for self defense and quite a few well educated and knowledgeable members. I would like to know how the Military is better for self defense than the: 1) Yojimbo 2) Chinook 3) Civilian/Matriarch...3 knives designed with self defense at the forefront.

[zenheretic]

3) I agree with you on the lethal force part...knife combat is very personnel as you are personally carving your opponent up and with the right tool, will literally dismember them. For any sensible person to willingly do this, the situation has to be very bad.
4) Calling the members here mall ninjas is pretty low...especially since there are members here who have personally used blades for self defense and quite a few well educated and knowledgeable members. I would like to know how the Military is better for self defense than the: 1) Yojimbo 2) Chinook 3) Civilian/Matriarch...3 knives designed with self defense at the forefront.

Good post Zac.

Denn's post that spurred point number three is so obvious to most people in this thread, I don't believe it was necessary to even mention it. The legalities of blade defense have been mentioned a million times. Anyone who participates here or in Bladeforums on a regular basis would know this. I guess Denn just had the holiday blues and wanted to boost his ego by insulting a bunch of very experienced and knowledgable forumites by stating the obvious. :rolleyes:

[Halfneck]

So I read a book on flying a plane, anyone want to be in the plane as the Pilot lets me fly it in for a landing?

Being aware & alert of your surroundings - Check.

Gather and Read as much information as possible - Check.

Training - Check, but always looking for more.

Edited: because Denn may just of ran out of his prescription.

[denn]

sorry about the mall ninja thing. it wasn't really meant as an aggressive insult, but rather as in the matter of speak thing, you know. all the talk about blocking, passing and civilians and matriarchs just got on my nerves somewhat, because i still stand beside my points i made: a knife battle is no organized fight where you can deploy all your years-earned traning and step away from having killedyour enemy while personally have no cut on yourself whatsoever.....

knifing is chaotic, fast and messy and has much more to do with luck and common sense than with training and martial arts experience.

[cdf]

I think a lot of fellas have made good points . A few random thoughts : The Delica and Endura 4 waves are probably the best entry level utility/sd folders in the Spyderco line , good utility , good deployment , good carryability . Things like the civie , while cool and scary looking , are limited in application ( not competent thrusters ) . They require very special training , and have zero utility function ( they will get you a ride downtown in many/most juristictions ).

I'm not too sure about the Yjimbo , the clip is a bit of an abortion ( stands out like a neon sign ) . The handle is pretty good for impact stuff .

I think it is better to use your EDC , rather than a dedicated blade . Developing muscle memory/familiarity is a good idea .

Whatever utility model you are comfortable with , and use fluently , is probably the best way to go . When Murphy is present , an unfamiliar lock type/action /handle will screw you up .

The millie. is interesting , I like the package , but distrust liners . It handles well with gloves on /cold weather conditions . It's a good compromise - lots of utility , good ergos , and very smooth deployment .

For a small , inoffensive , yet usefull EDC/SD outfit , I like the DoDo a lot . Very grippy handle , thats not too bad for impact stuff .

I should know better , but I like the Police model a lot . It is the deffinitive IWB carry . The scales need texturing of some kind . With a wave it would be one nasty street knife . With scale texturing , it would come into it's own as an impact tool .

I stress impact a lot , on account of you are likley to have to gain time /space in order to deploy your blade . I have been lucky , so far a closed folder in a hammer fist has settled the issue in my favor .

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings .

Chris

[Zac]

sorry about the mall ninja thing. it wasn't really meant as an aggressive insult, but rather as in the matter of speak thing, you know. all the talk about blocking, passing and civilians and matriarchs just got on my nerves somewhat, because i still stand beside my points i made: a knife battle is no organized fight where you can deploy all your years-earned traning and step away from having killedyour enemy while personally have no cut on yourself whatsoever.....

knifing is chaotic, fast and messy and has much more to do with luck and common sense than with training and martial arts experience.

Knife fighting is chaotic...but a Civilian/Matriarch leaves a nasty cut. A controlled cut is indeed possible and it is not all that hard to divert a wrist with a large, reverse S curve. One advantage of the Military I agree with you on is reach...however, it is not the only model with excellent reach and if reach is of top concern, the Cold Steel Grande Vaquero may be the best choice for the user.

You have to also keep in mind that a massive flesh wound is going to stop an attacker. A reverse S curved blade will pull a nasty slice...it will sever muscle and remove tendons. Aside from the pain, humans often have a fear of blood. A single slice is often enough to end a confrontation. If an attacker goes running, there is no need to make any sort of a 'close'.

[Joe Talmadge]

sorry about the mall ninja thing. it wasn't really meant as an aggressive insult, but rather as in the matter of speak thing, you know.

I thought the mall ninja remark was a joke, which is why I tried to lighten things up before it turned into a flamewar. Taking things more seriously, I want to examine your last statement more closely

all the talk about blocking, passing and civilians and matriarchs just got on my nerves somewhat, because i still stand beside my points i made: a knife battle is no organized fight where you can deploy all your years-earned traning and step away from having killed your enemy while personally have no cut on yourself whatsoever.....

This statement of yours about not have any cut on yourself whatsoever -- that in itself is a mall ninja-ish statement. If the good guy has a knife in his hand, why would you assume the bad guy does also? If the good guy felt his life was in danger enough to get his knife out, how in the world did the bad guy get his out also? In reality, knife-on-knife is a pretty rare thing. There are many conditions that legally and morally justify the good guy getting his knife out -- could be the bad guy has a stick, or a brick, or is just huge and beating the good guy to death, or maybe there's multiple unarmed bad guys, etc. Ironically, it's only mall ninjas who assume that edged-weapon self defense necessarily means knife-on-knife, and zero in on these "you will be cut" statements. Yes, that's likely for knife-on-knife, but knife-on-knife itself shouldn't be the main focus of training.

I do agree that, once we're talking about the good guy pulling a knife, we're talking about a life-threatening situation which is pretty terrifying, and the encounter will be stress-filled and chaotic. Moreover, it's likely to happen when it's dark, when it's much more difficult to pull off any kind of fancy defense.

knifing is chaotic, fast and messy and has much more to do with luck and common sense than with training and martial arts experience.

Mindset, awareness, and judgement can significantly raise your chances, though. One of the key challenges is getting your knife out at all -- realizing that it's time to do so while you have time and space. All this can be trained to some extent. Being able to mount an instinctive, explosive, powerful, effective offense can also be trained. I agree with the sentiment from your previous post that a knife is such an effective weapon that no training is required to make it terrifying and deadly, and have always disagreed with the "you must have training or you won't be effective" crowd ... that said, it's silly to think that the right training in combatives won't sharpen your edge (so to speak). Just as it can significantly sharpen your edge in empty-hand or firearms or other combatives. You're simply wrong if you think that stress reactions can't be trained, but they must be trained under stress and realistically, which is my usual complaint about much edged-weapon training I've seen. But the mindset to survive and relentlessly defend yourself is king.

[Terry Trahan]

I got my back up on the mall-ninja statement, and was writing a reply,
when I saw Joe had eloquently, and with less anger, stated it
better than I did.
Thanks Joe.

[stonyman]

Hey Denn,
I am posting this after the apology so this would not be my first flamed posting on this forum. I too would be lumped into the mall ninja catagory and quite a few of us have stared or observed that messy reality that you speak of. That is why some of us are not the big and famous trainers or movie stars the world, but everyday people who are charged with preparing ourselves and others for the harsh realities that you speak of. I have been in more than one edged weapon altercation and observed many others as a correctional officer from 1997-2001. I will not even include my time as a patrolman or executive protection employee where the element of surprise is the mother of all attacks. Does that make me any better or worse than anyone else, not at all. I admit many speak from a strong theory on what they perceive as the right approach to S.D. A person who trains for the worst will have a better chance of succeeding in an unpredictable situation, because they expose themselves to those situational realities, consistently. The mindset and prevention is the most important aspect of training. Either a soldier or criminal or law-biding ninja, never discredit ones ability to prevail with practiced ability to wreck havoc on someone when the situation warrants. There is a great blend of folks on this forum including yourself with one common bond and that is the love of quality cutlery. There are some serious advocates of all aspects of the usage of the blade around here. Your apology is once again accepted, that shows the mark of a quality person. I will not belittle you or what you feel is important about S.D., the professional and collectors and knife loving people are here to learn and share information with one another. Let us help eachother and not classify eachother as obsolete or ninjas for being serious about our lives and the protection of others. Take care and God Bless You All!

[Dr. Snubnose]

sorry about the mall ninja thing. it wasn't really meant as an aggressive insult, but rather as in the matter of speak thing, you know. all the talk about blocking, passing and civilians and matriarchs just got on my nerves somewhat, because i still stand beside my points i made: a knife battle is no organized fight where you can deploy all your years-earned traning and step away from having killedyour enemy while personally have no cut on yourself whatsoever.....

knifing is chaotic, fast and messy and has much more to do with luck and common sense than with training and martial arts experience.

denn: I didn't find the mall ninja thing to be an aggresive insult however the point of insult or offensive comment that you did make was calling some of us ignorant. This I find offensive, and reading what you wrote above I now know that your comments were meant to be an aggressive insult. I am not willing to debate the points you make (as everyone is entitled to their opinion) I am not willing to educate you on the finer points and methods that have worked so well for me in the past while engaged in lethal combat, nor am I willing to talk to you about the benefits of getting some type of training as you seem to already know it all. I'm not willing to share my expertise or knowlegde with someone who is unwilling to learn or at the very least listen...Joe was very kind as to speak to your issues and give advice and make comments in a calm and cool manner....he is a better man than me!

[Puyallupknifegu]

Joe, thank you for your eloquent, rational reply to Denn's "opinions".

I have to admit that I was offended as well...I have never been in an armed confrontation, and I pray to God every day that I never will! However, I prepare for it all the same...I have been training for more than several years now in multiple disciplines and I agree with Joe that you have to train for reality. That said, I know that my chances for survival are much higher than the average guy on the street my age and size w/out training.
I do not say this with any amount of arrogance. My teachers have proven things to me over the years and I know what they, the arts I've studied and finally what I am personally capable of. That is more than enough for me.

I don't feel it wise to ever insult anyone who has investe their blood sweat and tears into studying any discipline. To me, that is the real issue that angered more than one of us here. You can have your opinion on knife SD...fine. Just please don't presume to tell someone who has trained in MA, that some jerk in a bar would destroy them because he has common sense and watches the UFC!

My wife put it quite well...It's my common sense that helped me acquire the knowledge I need to defend myself. :)


Tim

[edkrueger]

Was that mall ninja thing about my spyfly comment? I'm not sugesting you do all of those things i mention at the same time. I was also not suggesting you dance with it. The spyfly would have a few advantages over the military. 1) its longer 2) its thicker 3) its a better stabber 4) It has less blade play (if you grip it tight enough.

And another thing to add to the conversation SD knives are not always ment to be lethal. Often the threat of force is more effective than the use of force. A potential attacker may be persuaded not to attack due to disensentives.

[ruxton]

Sorry, I must confess I haven't fully read this thread due to time constraints but in reply to the initial question, I would suggest the yojimbo or the waved D4/E4s, currently the waved E4s and D4s are the fastest drawing spydercos on offer IMO (at least until the p'kal is released) and the yojimbo is simply my favourite knife ever.

If you'd have asked me a year ago though I definitely would have said the civilian, without a moments thought. These days I've come to realise the ability to stab is very important (arguably more important than the ability to slash) and as such I can't bring myself to reccommend a knife which you can't effectively stab with. When your body is flooded with adrenaline you weren't expecting and you loose all the fine motor skills you've been training with all these years, stabbing is something you will at least want the option of doing.
Say you draw your knife successfully and use it on someone, depending on what angle/position/context/environment etc. that you/your attacker happen to be in, you may well find yourself doing something unexpected that you haven't trained for, while you might train for years just slashing, never once stabbing, when the SHTF you might just find that you reflexively, instinctively go for a stab. Of course the longer you train to do something the more likely you are to do it that way when it's for real, but you can never talk about certainties.

I'm not suggesting it wouldn't hurt being stabbed with a civilian of course, being stabbed with any bit of pointy metal hurts, just that it's IMO foolish to cut down your options needlessly.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Doc. but didn't the yojimbo outslash the civvie in some of your meat tests?

Anyway, when picking a knife for self defence there are many factors to consider... Off the top of my head, in no particular order... (and I'm sure there are more)
Concealability
Versatility
Ability to be used for utility as well as self defence
Cutting "power"
GRIP
Blade length
Serrations (much debate but I like them)
Ability to slash effectively
Ability to stab effectively
Looks (you might not care and the guy you cut up with it probably won't be thinking about what it looks like either, but the jury that decides what you'll be doing for the next 10 years or so do )
Construction/Materials/Quality (all pretty irrelevant if you're buying a spyderco)

Edit: Personally blade length isn't that important to me, being shorter just means I'm more likely to carry it, in the grand scheme of things an inch difference means nothing. It's like people who insist punches are "better" than palm-heels because you have an extra couple of inches of range. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Snubnose]

[quote="ruxton"]Sorry, I must confess I haven't fully read this thread due to time constraints but in reply to the initial question, I would suggest the yojimbo or the waved D4/E4s, currently the waved E4s and D4s are the fastest drawing spydercos on offer IMO (at least until the p'kal is released) and the yojimbo is simply my favourite knife ever.

If you'd have asked me a year ago though I definitely would have said the civilian, without a moments thought. These days I've come to realise the ability to stab is very important (arguably more important than the ability to slash) and as such I can't bring myself to reccommend a knife which you can't effectively stab with. When your body is flooded with adrenaline you weren't expecting and you loose all the fine motor skills you've been training with all these years, stabbing is something you will at least want the option of doing.
Say you draw your knife successfully and use it on someone, depending on what angle/position/context/environment etc. that you/your attacker happen to be in, you may well find yourself doing something unexpected that you haven't trained for, while you might train for years just slashing, never once stabbing, when the SHTF you might just find that you reflexively, instinctively go for a stab. Of course the longer you train to do something the more likely you are to do it that way when it's for real, but you can never talk about certainties.

I'm not suggesting it wouldn't hurt being stabbed with a civilian of course, being stabbed with any bit of pointy metal hurts, just that it's IMO foolish to cut down your options needlessly.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Doc. but didn't the yojimbo outslash the civvie in some of your meat tests?
Anyway, when picking a knife for self defence there are many factors to consider... Off the top of my head, in no particular order... (and I'm sure there are more)
Concealability
Versatility
Ability to be used for utility as well as self defence
Cutting "power"
GRIP
Blade length
Serrations (much debate but I like them)
Ability to slash effectively
Ability to stab effectively
Looks (you might not care and the guy you cut up with it probably won't be thinking about what it looks like either, but the jury that decides what you'll be doing for the next 10 years or so do ]

Yes Ruxton the Yo did outslash the Civie...Doc :D

[Qship]

All this is putting the cart before the horse. Denn's assertions not withstanding, knife fighting is about learning the right conditioned reflexes very well. That takes serious training with a good teacher.

If you get good training, you will know what you need to do with a knife, and you will pick a knife that will help you do it. It is a personal choice. The knife that fits my hand may not be perfect for you. But, we both should be able to use any reasonable knife that comes to hand.

Unfortunately, King Arthur ran off with Excalibur and charmed blades have been in short supply ever since. So, we are reduced to substituting skill for magic. So, we train.

That said, I carry two Yojimbos because they work for me.

Qship

[denn]

i tried to make a down to earth approach to this matter, because i'm afraid many of you guys underestimate the seriousness and real-life thinking that goes into "knife fighting".

i'm not going to defend myself anymore nor will i respond to any other flamings whatsoever.

suffice it to say, i tried to add some common sense to this knifing thread, but it seems my opinion is considered more of a troll-post than serious advice. i'm done with this thread guys

so go ahead, resume your weekly knife-fighting seminars, keep carrying a selfdefense-dedicated spanking new Chinook in your pocket, keep fooling yourself that you can block, parry, pass and trap and maintain your cool in a real high-stress street-assault. keep fantasizing that knifing-training will be benificial for you, whatever

most of all, after your heroic knife battle which you miraculously survived completely unscathed, have fun explaining your fascination for the knife-fighting sport and your not-a-single-scatch-on-it-with-factory-edge knife with type o-positive all over it to the police, the jury and the judge, and enjoy your stay in the big house.

silly mallninja's......... :rolleyes:

[Qship]

We're all anxious to learn, and if you offer down-to-earth advice we are curious about your practical experience. If you say training is useless, you must have done well working out against a trained knife fighter. If you say a knife is useless, you must have experience to back it up. Tell us about it. Those of us who have wasted twenty or thirty years in martial arts are interested.

Qship

[Joe Talmadge]

Denn, if I'm ever attacked by a gang of strawmen, I'm going to ask you to knock 'em down for me :)

[Dr. Snubnose]

Denn, if I'm ever attacked by a gang of strawmen, I'm going to ask you to knock 'em down for me :)

I just hope he has the common sense to bring matches...no wait.... children shouldn't play with matches. Doc