China

[Naperville]

Can someone tell me what TKO and Mushroom add to a thread? So far I don't see anything other than snipes and complaints.

I reply to posts aimed at me, and I get called out. I know that the table is tilted toward the LEFT here on the forums, and I think that I put up with a lot responding.

[Mushroom]

[RyanY]

Welp, add another to the list of Chinese value knives that are now doing a compression-style ('top liner lock'), this time CJRB. They also have a top frame lock, which is interesting.

The main issue here of course is that every single major value player is going to be coming out with this lock, which will only increase the discrepancy between these budget knives with the 'new innovative locking mechanism' and Spyderco's value offerings, which will cause them to look more antiquated. The interesting thing is that the top liner ala compression lock is touted as a safer option than the liner lock since it keeps your finger out of the path of the blade. However right now, with companies rushing to come out with their own version, they are kinda skimping on a lot of the R&D and testing to ensure a properly executed version of this lock. Several models from various companies have been having locks fail, including some that I have mentioned. Some people won't care, as they just want the latest and greatest. But the buttons on a lot of these knives stand very proud, and will less lockbar tension, the blades have been getting released under mild pressure and accidental release of the buttons, like in people's pockets.

The only variants of Spyderco's button compression locks feature a double detent which keeps the blade from being released by button tension alone.

It could be a really cool opportunity for the originator of the original compression lock and button compression lock to release the safest version of the lock on a value folder. I think that as this becomes the new standard, Spyderco needs to step up if they want to stay in this market.

Interesting points, but even as the crossbar lock has become pervasive Benchmade seems to continue having strong sales, but I can't see their bottom line numbers to know for certain how they are fairing.

Your point about lock failure is telling. Sal has said many times that doing a compression lock properly is not a simple task, as there is some complicated geometry at play if you want it to be very strong and easy to operate. I suppose it depends on how much they trust their maker in China, whether they want to share their secrets to getting the compression lock to work perfectly, or not. Taichung has it down, of course. If they teach the maker in China how to perfect the compression lock, will it immediately spill over into budget competitors? Is that a bad thing? For short-term business, maybe. For the philosophy that rising tides raise all boats? Maybe. Hard to say.

[Red Leader]

I suppose it depends on how much they trust their maker in China, whether they want to share their secrets to getting the compression lock to work perfectly, or not.

Right. I know that the request has been brought up in this thread to put the city of the maker on the blade, to which Sal replied and said that most knife makers are in Yang Jiang and it may not mean much. But I still think it does add a bit more of a personal connection. He also said there is mutual respect, and if the knives are to stay relevant, I don't know if they have much choice to not offer a value comp lock.

I'm sure the Chinese makers out there can buy a bunch of Goldens and take them apart and study them, but there are probably little tiny things easily missed that would make a big difference. I don't know if there is any sort of hesitation there on the lock for that reason, but that seems to be one of the tensions that exists in doing business in a place like China, and some of the risks you run...how much exposure of your bread and butter do you risk in a place known for replicating things, sometimes good and sometimes not? Is their maker insulated from all this risk?

I'd like to take a moment to just sympathize w/ Spyderco. To see so many businesses around you fold due to loss of market share to imports, and then to have to decide whether or not to participate in it and to what degree. Sounds incredibly hard.

[sal]

I really appreciate all of the comments and discussion. I also appreciate keeping it as non partisan as possible. Lets avoid complaining about each other. It doesn't serve the discussion.

sal

[Mushroom]

I also appreciate the people who are keeping this topic as non partisan as possible.

It’s the guy that doesn’t comprehend what that request means and insists on discussing politics that I do not appreciate.

Why is it a forum rule in the first place if it’s not going to be enforced?

“In an attempt to respect the extreme diversity of our members, we ask that you do not start or participate in any discussions relating to religion or politics.”

[zhyla]

I'm sure the Chinese makers out there can buy a bunch of Goldens and take them apart and study them, but there are probably little tiny things easily missed that would make a big difference.

I feel like I’m bursting your bubble here but.. nah. Simple mechanical things are not hard to reverse engineer and produce. There’s effort to get it right of course, but that’s true always. I think the more rational fear is that reverse engineering happening too soon. If a prototype gets stolen and the clones make it onto the market first, that’s not good.

[zhyla]

I'm sure the Chinese makers out there can buy a bunch of Goldens and take them apart and study them, but there are probably little tiny things easily missed that would make a big difference.

I feel like I’m bursting your bubble here but.. nah. Simple mechanical things are not hard to reverse engineer and produce. There’s effort to get it right of course, but that’s true always. I think the more rational fear is that reverse engineering happening too soon. If a prototype gets stolen and the clones make it onto the market first, that’s not good.

Btw, the buying of competitors products and analyzing them/reverse engineering them is standard practice in all companies. Part of competing is understanding your competition.

I also appreciate the people who are keeping this topic as non partisan as possible.

I’m not sure that’s really possible. Certain politicians have chosen China as a lightning rod. Lots of people have “big feelings” about macro economics and very few of us have any expertise in the matter.

I’ve forgotten Sal’s original purpose for this thread — I imagine he feels a little pinched.

I don’t really care so much about how it’s done but I would like to see Spyderco become affordable again to the point I can recommend it to people. I sometimes wonder if Spyderco is keeping up with automated fabrication methods. I seem Grimsmo cranking out $1000 knives at the “beyond perfect” quality level, it makes me wonder why Spyderco can’t make a $100 PM2 in Golden.

And if they can’t, why is it China can?

[Jimandchris2]

I also appreciate the people who are keeping this topic as non partisan as possible.

It’s the guy that doesn’t comprehend what that request means and insists on discussing politics that I do not appreciate.

Why is it a forum rule in the first place if it’s not going to be enforced?

“In an attempt to respect the extreme diversity of our members, we ask that you do not start or participate in any discussions relating to religion or politics.”

Would intentionally shorter production runs (2–3 years) for new designs free up enough Taichung/Golden capacity to keep most fresh models out of China, or would Spyderco setup costs actually force more reliance on China to amortize tooling? Please be mindful, I'm only aware of one rule of business from Dolly Parton," If people talk good about you or bad about you, at least they're talking about you."

[Red Leader]

I'm sure the Chinese makers out there can buy a bunch of Goldens and take them apart and study them, but there are probably little tiny things easily missed that would make a big difference.

I feel like I’m bursting your bubble here but.. nah. Simple mechanical things are not hard to reverse engineer and produce. There’s effort to get it right of course, but that’s true always. I think the more rational fear is that reverse engineering happening too soon. If a prototype gets stolen and the clones make it onto the market first, that’s not good.

You are probably more right than you know. But so far we have seen more often than not companies getting it wrong. And...probably not for long. One thing I have seen is that the Chinese value knife market leaders are both incredible attentive and flexible to the market's demands. The idea of failing button comp locks means that they will adjust and improve it. And who knows when the 'top liner lock' cycle will end, but the fact that people are really interested in it right now puts Spyderco in a really great position, but I lament that they don't really have an option that could get people into a compression lock in the value line.

[Red Leader]

I don’t really care so much about how it’s done but I would like to see Spyderco become affordable again to the point I can recommend it to people. I sometimes wonder if Spyderco is keeping up with automated fabrication methods. I seem Grimsmo cranking out $1000 knives at the “beyond perfect” quality level, it makes me wonder why Spyderco can’t make a $100 PM2 in Golden.

And if they can’t, why is it China can?

But, what kind of salary could Spyderco pay it's employees w/ $100 a pop for a Golden-made knife? I'm not really sure it's fair what you are asking, and to then compare that to China. Although I agree with the idea of being on the cutting edge of tooling and knife manufacturing, CNC'ing and automation.

What does affordable look like to you? I assume you are meaning the USA line? They have the Lil' Native LW which comes in right around $100 and the UKPK which comes in under. Do you consider those recommendable?

[Danke]

Cheap, Good, or Fast. Pick two.

[Nestor]

I would strongly prefer to see Spyderco keeping their production within the USA, Taiwan and Japan. I wouldn't mind something from Europe or Canada. China? They can create some pretty impressive pieces, but the way I see them... they're not our trade partners. Enemies? Not yet, but pretty soon. I will pay more to have a Spyderco knife that wasn't made in China. I don't believe that I have one made there anyway. Let's support our own people and the people from the friendly countries instead of China. Taiwan is fine though. Nothing against them.

[zhyla]

But, what kind of salary could Spyderco pay it's employees w/ $100 a pop for a Golden-made knife?

What employees?

That’s partly a joke, but if you were starting a knife company today in any country you would be investing in some million dollar machines and hiring a few people whose entire purpose is to make sure those machines run literally around the clock.

[Red Leader]

But, what kind of salary could Spyderco pay it's employees w/ $100 a pop for a Golden-made knife?

What employees?

That’s partly a joke, but if you were starting a knife company today in any country you would be investing in some million dollar machines and hiring a few people whose entire purpose is to make sure those machines run literally around the clock.

I have heard the number 150 thrown around, but I don't know if that is only Golden, or other employees abroad.

[Outlaw Pete]

Hi Sal, I’m located in Australia and won’t be buying knives from China. The way they rip off designers and manufacturers and underpay their workers is not something I’d ever endorse. Happy to pay a bit more for the USA (and Taiwan )made stuff

[Wartstein]

I would strongly prefer to see Spyderco keeping their production within the USA, Taiwan and Japan. I wouldn't mind something from Europe or Canada....

Hi Sal, I’m located in Australia and won’t be buying knives from China. ...

I get what you both mean but still wonder: Perhaps it is that Spyderco as a company and as a whole can stay healthy, thrieve or survive and thus actually be able to produce in the US and create Jobs there right because they also have their "Chinese branch"?

Just something I ask myself, no idea how the situation really is.

[Red Leader]

I would strongly prefer to see Spyderco keeping their production within the USA, Taiwan and Japan. I wouldn't mind something from Europe or Canada....

Hi Sal, I’m located in Australia and won’t be buying knives from China. ...

I get what you both mean but still wonder: Perhaps it is that Spyderco as a company and as a whole can stay healthy, thrieve or survive and thus actually be able to produce in the US and create Jobs there right because they also have their "Chinese branch"?

Just something I ask myself, no idea how the situation really is.

I don't think really any of us non-company folks do, but Sal did drop a little tidbit earlier in the thread by mentioning that about 10% of sales are from the value (ala Chinese?) models. That may have even been a rough estimate, but I would have thought it'd have been more, given the prolific number of models and releases. The latest reveal would almost send a signal that they see it as a growing market and thus intend to support it even further...meaning, see it as more than 10% of their overall market sales.

My hope is that with the Golden expansion, and the fall of Crucible, we can get some budget steels in-house with a good reputation for instant curb appeal (like 14c28n), and start getting right to work on a USA-made value line, in the vein of the Lil' Native LW. Heck, even if the value line becomes a bit of a loss leader, it opens the gateway right into the nicer USA knives, since we all know once you get one, it becomes easier to pick up a second, third, etc. I don't know how true that is for 'normie' knife folks, but it does get easier once you get one in hand. People know and like 14c28n. Can you imagine that steel w/ a Spyderco heat treat? Sounds awesome!

Reason I'm bringing that up is that maybe sales from a USA value line would 'relocate' some of that sales percentage from overseas Chinese knives back into the USA. Perhaps with some increased automation and advanced tech in the Golden expansion, a dedicated spot for a value line on the factory floor is possible. Design something that reduces the biggest amount of overhead, whatever that may be. Keep the construction super simple yet robust, with all those great ergos and a decent budget steel. I think it would sell. If you had a marketing campaign that brought attention to what you were trying to do (bring back manufacturing to USA from China) then it would attract some customers on principle alone. Make it affordable enough (has to be under $100) and people will show up for it! Maybe do it in the CBBL so that you don't have to fuss w/ the tuning of a comp lock (in handling hundreds of Spydercos, it seems like the CBBL was a more consistently smooth lock than the comp lock IME).

Could it be done?

Perhaps the Spyderco decision at this time is to keep manufacturing in China. Afterall, closing down shop somewhere is probably a massive undertaking. But maybe a more subtle approach, a drawdown, could be feasible. Start creating room for the replacements now, start getting that 10% number down and see the sales in other regions take over. Maybe the goal is to have the Chinese knives go from a 10% market share to 8%. Then to 5%. Then even lower, and at some point it becomes easier to make the full transition. Asking them to drop that 10% now just isn't realistic, but maybe it could start going that direction.

[RyanY]

Sal did... ...by mentioning that about 10% of sales are from the value (ala Chinese?) models. That may have even been a rough estimate...

...start getting right to work on a USA-made value line, in the vein of the Lil' Native LW. Heck, even if the value line becomes a bit of a loss leader...

Interesting thoughts. I wonder what that 10% really means. Unit volume? Revenue? Profit? If it is 10% of profits (pure speculation) then switching from a revenue source to a loss leader may not be feasible. If it is just 10% by unit volume then the idea is more realistic. I am sure that the Spyderco crew will make a good decision.

[RustyIron]

I am sure that the Spyderco crew will make a good decision.

Right?
All I know is that Spyderco makes knives that I like. That's what matters. Whether Sal decides to put Jerry on the Berger grinder to finish the K390 blades or have Bob do them on the Blohm, is none of my business. Whether he makes them in Golden, Seki, or the Shayang Farm isn't a concern because I'm confident that folks in Golden are working hard to ensure that I'm going to find something good inside the red and black box.