Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 9:42 am
I believe you mean 62-63
Stop using AI please, it's not accurate enough to be used for things like this and will just mislead you.
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HRC Database
Page 15 of 16
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:32 pm
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:40 pm
lol, what is that thing good for?
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:22 pm
What is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all. They calculate. YES they can do that very well. Hand a computer a math problem that is not quantum and a $50 to $150 calculator can beat most humans.
I think AI will not advance until quantum becomes a reality everywhere. Logic and Reasoning done by humans is not a YES or NO, it involves many maybes. They cannot honestly train AI the way that it needs to be trained at the moment, and I doubt it can THINK or REASON at this time. It just looks for patterns in text that you feed it and regurgitates it.
AI isn't useless. It may be a decent search tool but until it can think and reason it is DUMB.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:32 pm
I'm finding AI to be pretty useless. It gets technical questions and especially medical ones wrong about 90% of the time.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:32 pmStop using AI please, it's not accurate enough to be used for things like this and will just mislead you.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:17 pm
I don't think that would be a real HRc for Magnacut. According to Larrin in his post on it, Shawn Houston (BBB) was able to reach 65.5 HRc max. He stated that 62-64 would be a practical upper limit. My Microtech tested at 61.5HRc with testing.
Maybe @sal could help...
Larrin's article on the testing of his steel:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/03/25/cpm-magnacut/
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:53 pm
Very good points, thank you for your insight.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:57 amThere are many different ways to get the same hardness but not all are equal because the hardness is only measuring the sum of the constituents in the microstructure not the individual components that contribute the most to strength or toughness or the lack thereof.
A great example is work that was done by Santiago in 1979 in the following diagram.
The graph shows different heat treatment conditions with the force required to fracture over the hardness HRC.
Rockwell hardness is essentially like measuring the body weight and while like with humans higher body weight can correlate with higher levels of strength It's pretty obvious that just having extreme bodyweight is not going to make anyone a world-class powerlifter in itself.
If we could measure body composition It would be a more accurate predictor than just body weight alone.
I'm not saying the consumer needs to do exotic testing on their knives to see the microstructure just purchase from reputable brands and don't get so hung up on being plus or minus one HRC difference.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:11 am
I think the human brain is just using pattern recognition as well, just in a more complex way that better models formal logic than current AI, giving it the illusion of something categorically different. Formal logic is essentially mathematical and computers do it quite well. Formal logic is YES or NO, while informal reasoning is more probabilistic, as is AI.Naperville wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:22 pmWhat is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all. They calculate. YES they can do that very well. Hand a computer a math problem that is not quantum and a $50 to $150 calculator can beat most humans.
I think AI will not advance until quantum becomes a reality everywhere. Logic and Reasoning done by humans is not a YES or NO, it involves many maybes. They cannot honestly train AI the way that it needs to be trained at the moment, and I doubt it can THINK or REASON at this time. It just looks for patterns in text that you feed it and regurgitates it.
AI isn't useless. It may be a decent search tool but until it can think and reason it is DUMB.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:55 am
I think a lot of what humans do while making decisions is pattern recognition. Even PhDs do it.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:11 amI think the human brain is just using pattern recognition as well, just in a more complex way that better models formal logic than current AI, giving it the illusion of something categorically different. Formal logic is essentially mathematical and computers do it quite well. Formal logic is YES or NO, while informal reasoning is more probabilistic, as is AI.Naperville wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:22 pmWhat is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all. They calculate. YES they can do that very well. Hand a computer a math problem that is not quantum and a $50 to $150 calculator can beat most humans.
I think AI will not advance until quantum becomes a reality everywhere. Logic and Reasoning done by humans is not a YES or NO, it involves many maybes. They cannot honestly train AI the way that it needs to be trained at the moment, and I doubt it can THINK or REASON at this time. It just looks for patterns in text that you feed it and regurgitates it.
AI isn't useless. It may be a decent search tool but until it can think and reason it is DUMB.
What separates the best minds from the ho hum is the ability to see when the patterns do not fit.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:33 am
But what if that's just another form of pattern recognition? Either the brain has some super special computational process we haven't been able to figure out in hundreds of years of scientific inquiry, or it's just simple reactive mechanisms put together in a complex way over billions of years of evolution to create a good decision making machine. I think it's the latter, which means AI has not been developed enough but it's not categorically different from human intelligence. The brain is not inherently logical or skeptical, those are just useful tools that developed in them over time. AI should be able to do the same.Naperville wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:55 amI think a lot of what humans do while making decisions is pattern recognition. Even PhDs do it.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:11 amI think the human brain is just using pattern recognition as well, just in a more complex way that better models formal logic than current AI, giving it the illusion of something categorically different. Formal logic is essentially mathematical and computers do it quite well. Formal logic is YES or NO, while informal reasoning is more probabilistic, as is AI.Naperville wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:22 pmWhat is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all. They calculate. YES they can do that very well. Hand a computer a math problem that is not quantum and a $50 to $150 calculator can beat most humans.
I think AI will not advance until quantum becomes a reality everywhere. Logic and Reasoning done by humans is not a YES or NO, it involves many maybes. They cannot honestly train AI the way that it needs to be trained at the moment, and I doubt it can THINK or REASON at this time. It just looks for patterns in text that you feed it and regurgitates it.
AI isn't useless. It may be a decent search tool but until it can think and reason it is DUMB.
What separates the best minds from the ho hum is the ability to see when the patterns do not fit.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:37 am
Maybe the top 5% of those in every field are just the best at recognizing antipatterns and patterns.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:33 amBut what if that's just another form of pattern recognition? Either the brain has some super special computational process we haven't been able to figure out in hundreds of years of scientific inquiry, or it's just simple reactive mechanisms put together in a complex way over billions of years of evolution to create a good decision making machine. I think it's the latter, which means AI has not been developed enough but it's not categorically different from human intelligence. The brain is not inherently logical or skeptical, those are just useful tools that developed in them over time. AI should be able to do the same.Naperville wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:55 amI think a lot of what humans do while making decisions is pattern recognition. Even PhDs do it.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:11 amI think the human brain is just using pattern recognition as well, just in a more complex way that better models formal logic than current AI, giving it the illusion of something categorically different. Formal logic is essentially mathematical and computers do it quite well. Formal logic is YES or NO, while informal reasoning is more probabilistic, as is AI.Naperville wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:22 pm
What is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all. They calculate. YES they can do that very well. Hand a computer a math problem that is not quantum and a $50 to $150 calculator can beat most humans.
I think AI will not advance until quantum becomes a reality everywhere. Logic and Reasoning done by humans is not a YES or NO, it involves many maybes. They cannot honestly train AI the way that it needs to be trained at the moment, and I doubt it can THINK or REASON at this time. It just looks for patterns in text that you feed it and regurgitates it.
AI isn't useless. It may be a decent search tool but until it can think and reason it is DUMB.
What separates the best minds from the ho hum is the ability to see when the patterns do not fit.
I don't know how you explain the best mathematicians, physicists, chemists, inventors, etc.
Einstein? Aristotle? Hawking?
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 6:37 am
I think I already broadly explained them since we know intelligence is a spectrum and a product of evolution. Some brains will randomly be better than any other at certain tasks, but the farther away from the average intelligence they are, the fewer there will be. Thus the people most capable of revolutionary thinking will be rare and famous.Naperville wrote: ↑Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:37 amMaybe the top 5% of those in every field are just the best at recognizing antipatterns and patterns.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:33 amBut what if that's just another form of pattern recognition? Either the brain has some super special computational process we haven't been able to figure out in hundreds of years of scientific inquiry, or it's just simple reactive mechanisms put together in a complex way over billions of years of evolution to create a good decision making machine. I think it's the latter, which means AI has not been developed enough but it's not categorically different from human intelligence. The brain is not inherently logical or skeptical, those are just useful tools that developed in them over time. AI should be able to do the same.Naperville wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:55 amI think a lot of what humans do while making decisions is pattern recognition. Even PhDs do it.Synov wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 6:11 am
I think the human brain is just using pattern recognition as well, just in a more complex way that better models formal logic than current AI, giving it the illusion of something categorically different. Formal logic is essentially mathematical and computers do it quite well. Formal logic is YES or NO, while informal reasoning is more probabilistic, as is AI.
What separates the best minds from the ho hum is the ability to see when the patterns do not fit.
I don't know how you explain the best mathematicians, physicists, chemists, inventors, etc.
Einstein? Aristotle? Hawking?
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 7:05 am
Guys were getting way off topic here; this thread is supposed to be the HRC database for Spyderco steels maybe we should start another thread for AI discussion?
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2026 10:04 pm
There is a really interesting thread on the Spyderco Reddit forum right now from some guys who have some high end hardness testers and the results they are getting could add to the database. It is a good read. I think Skylark (from here) is also contributing, which is fun.
I know some of you don't do Reddit (I get it), but this seems like one of the better discussions on there. It's great seeing some new numbers coming out.
I know some of you don't do Reddit (I get it), but this seems like one of the better discussions on there. It's great seeing some new numbers coming out.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2026 11:53 pm
Mind that neural networks (NN) was a copy from the real life brain (neural) cells.
NN reason in the same way we does, having much more information in their possession thus more probability to loose/catch wrong context (from the high trust forums, where humans also mistaken) and start hallucinating like we does.
Factual correct information exist and you may all the time "are you sure, show me the real world numbers backing your claim(s)" which then narrows things. I'm using this most of the time when Perplexity is too much confident per my feeling.
I'm in NN for 8 years and they're far more factual correct than we do with minimum error rate compared to ours (see false memory for example). And once your critical thinking engaged, there's always "prove me" option.
Here's on the forum or on BF we was so much time factually incorrect (HRC matters but there's lot of "but") and imagine that NN should override old info with new info and then decide which one is more correct.
You may try it as your ordinary buddy which has no soul and sometimes hallucinating.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2026 2:35 am
Please stay safe! I see you are in Ukraine.vvs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 11, 2026 11:53 pmMind that neural networks (NN) was a copy from the real life brain (neural) cells.
NN reason in the same way we does, having much more information in their possession thus more probability to loose/catch wrong context (from the high trust forums, where humans also mistaken) and start hallucinating like we does.
Factual correct information exist and you may all the time "are you sure, show me the real world numbers backing your claim(s)" which then narrows things. I'm using this most of the time when Perplexity is too much confident per my feeling.
I'm in NN for 8 years and they're far more factual correct than we do with minimum error rate compared to ours (see false memory for example). And once your critical thinking engaged, there's always "prove me" option.
Here's on the forum or on BF we was so much time factually incorrect (HRC matters but there's lot of "but") and imagine that NN should override old info with new info and then decide which one is more correct.
You may try it as your ordinary buddy which has no soul and sometimes hallucinating.
I plan to do martial arts for a while. I will not be employed, and I will study artificial intelligence to see if I can land a meaningful job in the AI field. I have a B.S. in Management Information Systems, A.A.S. Cisco Networking, and at least $20k US in Linux, Microsoft and shell scripting, I do not have a background as you do. I have never dealt with NN. I have no advanced or graduate level courses.
We will see how far I can go. I will work hard.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2026 4:00 am
Hi, thanks. I'm living in the middle of nowhere, the place even not on the maps at all - the best security (don't be there as per the Onion).Naperville wrote: ↑Mon Jan 12, 2026 2:35 amPlease stay safe! I see you are in Ukraine.
I plan to do martial arts for a while. I will not be employed, and I will study artificial intelligence to see if I can land a meaningful job in the AI field. I have a B.S. in Management Information Systems, A.A.S. Cisco Networking, and at least $20k US in Linux, Microsoft and shell scripting, I do not have a background as you do. I have never dealt with NN. I have no advanced or graduate level courses.
We will see how far I can go. I will work hard.
If you like getting into AI - that's great, not so rocket science and fascinating thing, once you do even some basic things you will be excited at least how impactful and capable this thing is.
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2026 3:46 pm
Just figured I'd add
This user on reddit has been poking a lot of knives on his mitutoyo - nice reference to have
https://www.reddit.com/u/679696/
This user on reddit has been poking a lot of knives on his mitutoyo - nice reference to have
https://www.reddit.com/u/679696/
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2026 4:56 pm
Well it has ruined my amazon page / amazon experience .What is AI good for?
Just my understanding. They are trying to make it 'reason' but I don't think they are there yet. They are begging, borrowing and stealing everything including copy-written documents, books, whatever they can get their hands on to train the various AI systems.
Well, computers do NOT reason at all
Gastly !
How can any breathing / upright person think this is an "improvement" .
Before , the "page" was rich and usable .
Now it is a boring , puzzle to be struggled with and when one does actually find something one is searching for it is like :
that's it ? ? ! !
How do I get back to where I started ?
WTF .
Makes me want to shop elsewhere for sure .
PS : and my knife purchases alone has probably paid for this silly thing .
PPS: stop . Just stop and give the look (and function choices) of the page back to the people who were doing it so competently ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
((((eventually I will find where to cut and paste this on amazon but until that wonderful moment I will let AI read it here on my Kindle Tablet ))))
Re: HRC Database
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2026 8:49 pm
Strange thread.
sal
sal