Spyderco Forums

Seams like several knives released in the last few months are carrying higher price tags that more closely reflect the market value of similar knives in similar materials. This might deter some flippers and make more knives available, albeit at a higher price. I just hope all the flipper haters are happy now. If they stay busy saving their money to pay for that new knife, they may be more inclined to mind their own business and let others do the same.

I suggested a full up front payment for preorders awhile back, announce it like 6 months ahead.

Most flippers are looking for a quick turn around so having their money tied up for 6 months would slow that down a lot.

Other than that I dunno.

Ankerson wrote:I suggested a full up front payment for preorders awhile back, announce it like 6 months ahead.

Most flippers are looking for a quick turn around so having their money tied up for 6 months would slow that down a lot.

Other than that I dunno.

I think this is an EXCELLENT suggestion because if you really need/want a MT you will jump at your first chance to SECURE one or two...WIN :)

If all the preorders sell out...good for :spyder: ...WIN :)

If some of the MT's don't sell out with the preorder, offer the remainders up on the open market first come, first served...WIN :)

It's a WIN/WIN/WIN scenario! :cool:

But wouldn't the preorders need to happen prior to the actual steel order so that Spyderco has a good idea of how many to produce requiring X amount of steel?

Ankerson wrote:I suggested a full up front payment for preorders awhile back, announce it like 6 months ahead.

Most flippers are looking for a quick turn around so having their money tied up for 6 months would slow that down a lot.

Other than that I dunno.

That's got its own issues..if people pay in full up front and there's a unforeseen delay then people start getting antsy and asking "wheres my knife??"..Remember the green Para2 fiasco?

That also creates a good amount of extra work for Spyderco..

The ironic thing is that this thread is 15 pages long on how to stop the "terrible" flippers and their are still 130 Mule Team 19 PSF27's showing in stock..

Philo Beddoe wrote:

Ankerson wrote:I suggested a full up front payment for preorders awhile back, announce it like 6 months ahead.

Most flippers are looking for a quick turn around so having their money tied up for 6 months would slow that down a lot.

Other than that I dunno.

That's got its own issues..if people pay in full up front and there's a unforeseen delay then people start getting antsy and asking "wheres my knife??"..Remember the green Para2 fiasco?

That also creates a good amount of extra work for Spyderco..

The ironic thing is that this thread is 15 pages long on how to stop the "terrible" flippers and their are still 130 Mule Team 19 PSF27's showing in stock..

Hence preorders prior to production. And hence the 24 month or so lead time. If they're out earlier, then great. And as far as the PSF27 mules, I don't understand it because mine has been absolutely fantastic. Really. One of the best steels I've used in the real world.

Philo Beddoe wrote:

Ankerson wrote:I suggested a full up front payment for preorders awhile back, announce it like 6 months ahead.

Most flippers are looking for a quick turn around so having their money tied up for 6 months would slow that down a lot.

Other than that I dunno.

That's got its own issues..if people pay in full up front and there's a unforeseen delay then people start getting antsy and asking "wheres my knife??"..Remember the green Para2 fiasco?

That also creates a good amount of extra work for Spyderco..

The ironic thing is that this thread is 15 pages long on how to stop the "terrible" flippers and their are still 130 Mule Team 19 PSF27's showing in stock..

I don't pretend to know what is best for Spyderco and their business model nor will I ever. :)

Perhaps the "wise heads" on the forum could also devise a simple standard means of testing with the mules, so they could be used more as intended?

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk or advocate specifically for flippers or anything like that. Spyderco is obviously free to make whatever business decisions that they want to. I was just giving my opinion because Sal asked for suggestions.

As a knife enthusiast, would I prefer for the Mules to end up in the hands of users rather than sellers? Of course! However, it is impossible to stop people from "flipping" the knives without having at least a few other effects that could be detrimental to Spyderco's business.

Whenever someone talks about flipping, I'm quick to say something about the free market not because I have some hard on for it, but because what you guys call "flippers" are a natural part of it and won't go away.

ChrisinHove wrote:Perhaps the "wise heads" on the forum could also devise a simple standard means of testing with the mules, so they could be used more as intended?

So many uses and environments for knives. It's hard to say that a test that evaluates a knife for me would be good for you and vice versa.

I appreciate all of the thought that went into this.

At this time, we're not going to change anything. Adding labor (numbers, pre-orders, pre-payment, etc.) all add labor which adds to the cost. Remember the goal was to get the odd steels to interested persons at the lowest possible cost to the ELU.

We do have one getting ready to release and we have a few in process.

sal

sal wrote:I appreciate all of the thought that went into this.

At this time, we're not going to change anything. Adding labor (numbers, pre-orders, pre-payment, etc.) all add labor which adds to the cost. Remember the goal was to get the odd steels to interested persons at the lowest possible cost to the ELU.

We do have one getting ready to release and we have a few in process.

sal

That's why I saw no point in responding to this necro-thread this morning... Aside from everything discussed today having already been explored, Sal already said all this last time. Besides that, making something this complicated can backfire and make it even more hyped up and coveted by flippers.

Obviously, Sal wanted to explore what can be done about flipping since he started this thread but making what was the simplest product line offered more complicated than Para2 sprint releases just does not make sense. It will raise the prices anyway. Stay on top of releases and you get to avoid flipper prices... I have yet to strike out on ANY Mule team yet...And I see no problem with the older Mule teams gaining value, that's how it works, all older disco'd models I own have gained value. Someone selling it in return at current market price is fair. As far as true flipping/scalping, like I said, stay on top of releases and avoid them.

These "little" changes suggested all require added risk (ex. what if a preorder get's "mule 204P'd", what if a foundry backs out? etc.), a lot of added man hours that Sal has to pay people to do, and other resources that a relatively small company can use elsewhere.

FCM415 wrote:Obviously, Sal wanted to explore what can be done about flipping since he started this thread

We've discussed this lots of times. I don't think anybody hates the free market but Sal as much as anybody wants the knives to get into the hands of the enthusiasts. The simplest way was to try to make enough to cover the demand. If someone that wants the knife can buy it from Spyderco, there would be no need to buy one from a scammer for more money.

Of course there is the balancing act of how many to make to cover demand but not have a lot of leftover inventory. All businesses have to deal with this of course. Regarding the latest mule- I think that it is good steel but the general impression is that it is "just D2", and that has reduced the demand for it. It's a new steel process, people should be buying them and trying them so we learn what the steel can really do beyond its metallurgy on paper. If a new mule is in a steel that everybody thinks is the greatest thing on earth, there will be a lot of demand for it.

bdblue wrote:

FCM415 wrote:Obviously, Sal wanted to explore what can be done about flipping since he started this thread

We've discussed this lots of times. I don't think anybody hates the free market but Sal as much as anybody wants the knives to get into the hands of the enthusiasts. The simplest way was to try to make enough to cover the demand. If someone that wants the knife can buy it from Spyderco, there would be no need to buy one from a scammer for more money.

Of course there is the balancing act of how many to make to cover demand but not have a lot of leftover inventory. All businesses have to deal with this of course. Regarding the latest mule- I think that it is good steel but the general impression is that it is "just D2", and that has reduced the demand for it. It's a new steel process, people should be buying them and trying them so we learn what the steel can really do beyond its metallurgy on paper. If a new mule is in a steel that everybody thinks is the greatest thing on earth, there will be a lot of demand for it.

To derail the probably dead thread a little bit, I haven't found PSF27 to be like the D2 I've tried to all. This is stronger with the ability to take a finer edge and keep it quite a long time. I've beat on it, batoned with it, bent it, bent it back, nothing seems to phase it. I know I could break it, but I'm not trying to break it, I'm trying to do things that a knife may be called on to do and this particular knife has done them very well. For such a thin blade, I kind of figured it would have broken already, at least when compared to the D2 I've used, but nope. Hanging strong. I can't think of anything else to do with it aside from simply try to break it, but I think we all know that any knife can be broken. I feel bad for the guys who say it's "just D2." Is CPM-D2 like PSF27? Don't know. But I do know that PSF27 is better in the real world than at least the D2 I've used and that's damned good to me.

sal wrote: We do have one getting ready to release and we have a few in process.

I'm sorry, did you guys miss this part? Am I the only one who's already :D ?
Some cool steels in the catalog, which could it beeeee?!

Just let them know how low they are without the capitalism excuse. Shame is a pretty powerful deterrent although some guys just don't have any shame.

SAL,

SUGGESTION - CREATE A PRE-ORDER PROGRAM.

Allow us to purchase the next mule before you order the steel. This can be done without naming the steel. For example, put up MT20 for sale for a non refundable deposit of $50 per mule for as many as the buyer desires. The remaining cost will be due at the time of issue.

A pre-order program would have a lot of positive effects.
1. Those of us who want to buy every mule would not lose out because of sickness or other problem. I had to buy one mule in the aftermarket because I was in the hospital the day it was put on sale. It was sold out by the time I got home.
2. The number of pre-orders would be useful information in planning production.
3. Flippers would be discouraged. Pre-ordering a lot of mules would tie up a lot of money and many potential buyers would not miss out and have to buy on the aftermarket. If a pre-order discount was available, many of us will have mules at a discount to the flipper who waits to buy a lot of mules on the first day of availability.

The above example is just one way you can set up the pre-orders. The pre-order system can be structured in a number of ways to meet the needs of you and your buyers.
1. Adjust the timing of the pre-order. Determine when it is announced and how long it is in effect.
2. Offer discounts for preorders. Say $5 off final price.
3. Have a preorder bracket (start and end) with different discounts before and after the steel is announced.
4. Adjust the cost of the non refundable deposit and discounts to meet your planning and production needs.
5. Adjust the number of mules that can be pre-ordered if you think it will be useful.

Is this cost effective and would it help you and us?

Bill Maier

QUICKSILVER wrote:SAL,

SUGGESTION - CREATE A PRE-ORDER PROGRAM.

Blah, blah blah..

Is this cost effective and would it help you and us?

Bill Maier

:rolleyes: This thread should be locked..

Philo Beddoe wrote:
:rolleyes: This thread should be locked..

Why? Nobody's misbehaving here.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:

Philo Beddoe wrote:
:rolleyes: This thread should be locked..

Why? Nobody's misbehaving here.