Plain Edge VS Serrated Edge

[cabfrank]

Maybe optimal sharpness, or close to optimal sharpness is more easily achieved with SE. It is for me, and it is more easily maintained too. Maybe that's why I prefer SE in general, and have mostly stopped acquiring PE. I'm not out to prove that anyone who prefers PE is wrong though. I don't understand the point of doing that. Tests, like statistics, can lead to results based on preconceived notions. I'm sure someone could show SE working more efficiently in their own usage if so desired. But again, why? To prove that the people who prefer PE are wrong? It doesn't make sense to me. I think many people would enjoy, or even prefer SE in real world usage if they came at it purely objectively. I'm not about to attempt to prove them wrong for preferring PE though.

[sv4]

I carry this debate in my pocket every day since I picked up a Spy 27 Dyad.

Hahaha! Which one is better? Which one do I use????

IMG_2432.jpeg

Best of both worlds right there!

[Skar]

Maybe optimal sharpness, or close to optimal sharpness is more easily achieved with SE. It is for me, and it is more easily maintained too. Maybe that's why I prefer SE in general, and have mostly stopped acquiring PE. I'm not out to prove that anyone who prefers PE is wrong though. I don't understand the point of doing that. Tests, like statistics, can lead to results based on preconceived notions. I'm sure someone could show SE working more efficiently in their own usage if so desired. But again, why? To prove that the people who prefer PE are wrong? It doesn't make sense to me. I think many people would enjoy, or even prefer SE in real world usage if they came at it purely objectively. I'm not about to attempt to prove them wrong for preferring PE though.

I agree with this.
I like se and find it performs better and longer than pe.
Only times I prefer pe is when the cleanness or detailed slice is preferred.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Has anyone here tried to fillet fish with a serrated edge? I know Lance had great times using the serrated Pacific Salt to process fresh caught fish.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Vivi:

Very cool thread. Thank you for all your efforts and insights.

Stay safe,

Mike

[benben]

I own plenty of both edges, and like them both!

A couple of absolutes....

Yardwork, 100% a serrated edge, not even close for me!
Kitchen duties, plain edge all the way!
EDC, whichever edge I grab out of the top drawer of my highboy dresser, that's what goes in my pocket for the day.

I agree with @cabfrank, I can sharpen / maintain a serrated edge much quicker and easier than a plain edge. I avoided serrated edges for years because I *thought* they were harder to sharpen, man how wrong I was! I missed out on a bunch of years using serrated edges for no reason at all.

[elena86]

How can it be that folks who undoubtedly absolutely know what they are talking about and definitely really and honestly use and compare their Spydies come to such different opinions and experiences when it comes to "PE vs SE" ? (See also for example how David @Evil D and @vivi obviously see and experience things differently when it comes to PE/SE... both definitely very experienced and very honest persons).

Because 99% of this is just preferences being presented as facts. I completely support people's preferences, but just because something works a certain way for them (or for me) doesn't mean it must work that same way for everyone. This is something I became self aware of a couple years ago, that I had been pushing my ideals and preferences onto others because I was passionate about what I saw, and maybe that's exactly what other people are doing too but for me I just reached a point where I felt really strange about it, even very negatively about it, and I just don't want anything to do with debating or arguing this sort of thing anymore. I'm happy to share my opinions but by no means are my opinions the law or what everyone else should be experiencing. It's a fun discussion up until we start telling each other that you're wrong and I'm right, and that's when one of my favorite quotes comes to mind "bees don't waste their time explaining to flies why honey is better than ****", we all have our version of what honey is and I'm happy to let people enjoy theirs.

Wise words.

[cjk]

edited out my quote for the sake of brevity

Interesting technique.

What you cut isn't the only thing that matters, but also how you cut it.

For example, in this next test, none of the knives did great cutting straight into the material, but all showed improved penetration when slicing the material at an angle.

I've opened some boxes the way you describe and a toothier edge, whether SE or PE, definitely seems to help.

----------------------------------------
....

Just to respond to this statement mainly:
"in this next test, none of the knives did great cutting straight into the material, but all showed improved penetration when slicing the material at an angle"

I think most of my SE edges seem to cut better at a 45-ish degree angle to the material than they do at a 90 degree angle. I found this noticeable in your video cutting paracord with the SE knife.
Cutting flat material with the belly of an SE edge parallel-ish to the material works pretty great for me too. This is what I described in my pizza box example description above.

I have a tendency to carry two small knives, one PE and one SE. The SE one is usually in the 'lil Native or Dragonfly size range. Sometimes a Delica or Native 5, but never larger than that. I am also a fan of the now discontinued Victorinox Serrated Spartan for this as well.

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you a bunch for making all the videos.

[RustyIron]

Yardwork, 100% a serrated edge, not even close for me!
Kitchen duties, plain edge all the way!

Word!

[40mm]

Do you think plain edge H1 with the CBN rods on the sharp maker would give the type of edge you like now Vivi? I love my serrated H1 dragonfly, but not I'm plain edge H1 curious.

[vivi]

Do you think plain edge H1 with the CBN rods on the sharp maker would give the type of edge you like now Vivi? I love my serrated H1 dragonfly, but not I'm plain edge H1 curious.

yes.



H1 shows a huge jump in edge retention with a thin, coarse edge. H1 is know for being rust proof but it is also extremely tough, so it handles thin edge angles well.

I've never had durability issues with my 8-10 dps PE H1 Pacific Salts, or the SE I reprofiled to 15 degrees inclusive. They've been used for all sorts of work I'd use any folder for.

You can even reprofile H1 knives pretty quickly with a sharpmaker and CBN rods. You can lay something under one side to get an angle closer to 10 degrees. Reset each side until you raise a burr, then touch up the apex with the 15 degree slots using a coarse finish. H1 grinds fast enough it'd probably take less than 30 minutes even with the narrow sharpmaker rods.

That type of edge will have really nice properties, as that youtube video and all the short videos in this thread show.

Dear Vivi:

Very cool thread. Thank you for all your efforts and insights.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thank you Mike, means a lot.

[40mm]

Do you think plain edge H1 with the CBN rods on the sharp maker would give the type of edge you like now Vivi? I love my serrated H1 dragonfly, but not I'm plain edge H1 curious.

yes.



H1 shows a huge jump in edge retention with a thin, coarse edge. H1 is know for being rust proof but it is also extremely tough, so it handles thin edge angles well.

I've never had durability issues with my 8-10 dps PE H1 Pacific Salts, or the SE I reprofiled to 15 degrees inclusive. They've been used for all sorts of work I'd use any folder for.

You can even reprofile H1 knives pretty quickly with a sharpmaker and CBN rods. You can lay something under one side to get an angle closer to 10 degrees. Reset each side until you raise a burr, then touch up the apex with the 15 degree slots using a coarse finish. H1 grinds fast enough it'd probably take less than 30 minutes even with the narrow sharpmaker rods.

That type of edge will have really nice properties, as that youtube video and all the short videos in this thread show.

Dear Vivi:

Very cool thread. Thank you for all your efforts and insights.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thank you Mike, means a lot.

Thanks for the quick reply! I just pulled the trigger on a plain edge Salt 1 user. Your fault! Have to give it a shot though. I like the older style handles and barrel clip. How does the course plain edge H1 hold up the wood work you've used it on?

[vivi]

The thin edge angle I use makes it cut wood well in terms of geometry, but polished edges are superior for wood working in my experience. That's why I give polished edges to my Moras and a lot of my favorite fixed blades for camping and backpacking.

Coarse edges will certainly get the job done though.

I like 200-400 grit edges for general utility, but run 1,000-2,000 grit edges on knives I intend to use for a lot of wood carving, like my Temperance 2.

[JoviAl]

@vivi you’ve inspired me to go and reprofile my wife’s PE aqua salt to an 8 dps coarse edge. It’s her work knife and the amount she has to resharpen it puts her off using it in its off-the-shelf edge setup. Hopefully this will reinvigorate her love for this classic knife.

[Wartstein]

......
Here's two attempts with each edge type:











Conclusion: Plain edge clearly wins. Both knives can make the cut, but plain edge does it with less fuss and less mess.
...

Vivi, this particular test result honestly surprises me: Not at all that your "specially tuned Vivi edge" does so well, but that the SE knife cut is so rough...?

Honestly completely different in my experience:
If one just lets the material "hook" into one single scallop it is super easy to cut plastic wrap very "cleanly" - works better for me personally than with a perfectly sharp plain edge in more or less the angle it came from the factory (!) with (so not your steeper angles). The "spikes" of SE do not have to come into play at all.

(For those who might have been on this forum for only a shorter period yet: I am not hinting that Vivi uses the "wrong" technique - actually his words in this particular matter have more weight for me than they have anyway, cause Vivi actually had his own "SE phase" in the past (as a matter of fact he was perhaps the main "force" that brought me to trying SE myself), so he definitely knows what he is talking about).

[Wartstein]

Dear Vivi:

Very cool thread. Thank you for all your efforts and insights.

Stay safe,

Mike

@Michael Janich (and @vivi ) there is still the one controversial thing I wondered about in other threads already and perhaps you´ll also find the time to chime in on it:

- In his tests Vivi "equalized" the edge angles between SE and PE by giving the latter the same steep 20 degree incl. angle with which SE roughly comes already from the factory (in chisel grind).

- On the one hand I fully agree that this makes the comparison more fair, on the other hand there is the fact that many think that PE just can´t take the same steep angles as SE without loosing some durabilty.

You say so yourself in your great article about serrated edges (second article in that "byte" https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... cycb2mvhza)
I may quote:

"On a PlainEdge™ blade, that [steep edge angle] would leave the terminal portion of the edge extremely fragile and prone to rolling or chipping. However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong."

By no means I want to start a controversy here, but Vivi apparently has different findings on this.
I speculate though that there must be a reason that Spyderco delivers SE with a rather steep edge angle from the factory, but not so PE... ?

Or in other words:

- IS it a true advantage of SE indeed that it can take better performing, steep angles and still be strong and durable while PE cannot - ?
There seem to be different opinions and I myself don´t have enough experience with really steep PE edge angles to be able to weigh in...

[Wartstein]

Do you think plain edge H1 with the CBN rods on the sharp maker would give the type of edge you like now Vivi? I love my serrated H1 dragonfly, but not I'm plain edge H1 curious.

A bit off topic, but what I also do to improves the cutting performance with the H1/H2 hollow grind:
I "smooth out" the transition line between the lower hollow grind - and the upper "square" portion of the blade.
So I just file away on it / round it off with some coarse sharpening stone, low grit sandpaper, even a metal file... does not look pretty, but does the work and actually improves the cutting through thicker matter.

[40mm]

Do you think plain edge H1 with the CBN rods on the sharp maker would give the type of edge you like now Vivi? I love my serrated H1 dragonfly, but not I'm plain edge H1 curious.

A bit off topic, but what I also do to improves the cutting performance with the H1/H2 hollow grind:
I "smooth out" the transition line between the lower hollow grind - and the upper "square" portion of the blade.
So I just file away on it / round it off with some coarse sharpening stone, low grit sandpaper, even a metal file... does not look pretty, but does the work and actually improves the cutting through thicker matter.

Thanks for that Wartstein. I actually pulled my offer on the Pac Salt and decided to slow down a little on the decision of which plain edge H1 knife to go for. Now I'm contemplating a Tasman. Mainly to try something new to keep things interesting. For whatever reason, only Salt knives keep me interested these days. I love the lack of liners and washers, just the overall simplicity of them. I've got a "Bloke Special" (ladybug hawkbill salt) en route as well, but thinking a Tasman, or an older Salt 1 may be the way to go for me. Not a fan of the Salt 2 handles.

[carrot]

Really great testing and discussion here, cheers to @vivi for starting up yet another fun thread.

I admit, I am not really into sharpening knives. I sharpen because I like knives, but I may go long periods between touching a stone. (Strops are great, though!)

As such, there are times when my edge might be far from perfect or ideal. A keen plain edge may sail through any material fantastically, but the serrations really shine when you just want to separate matter without care for the cleanliness of the end result.

Additionally, if you do get careless and bounce off something you shouldn't have cut, the teeth protect the scallops, limiting a flat spot to a single small area, much like ripstop fabric prevents tears from spreading. It's not too hard, in a moment of carelessness (or numb fingers, rocking boat, etc), to run your entire edge against something flattening a whole section of edge.

The tip of the knife, particularly on a PE, is one of the singularly most useful parts of the blade, as it is good for increasing pressure and piercing tough material. SE has many such points in the form of teeth instead. Both perform great when razor sharp, but SE continues to separate matter long after PE bounces off.

A big downside of course, is, if you really wreck an edge, you probably don't have a low enough grit triangle stone to fix the scallops whereas all kinds of stones can be used to restore a plain edge.

[Wartstein]

.....
Additionally, if you do get careless and bounce off something you shouldn't have cut, the teeth protect the scallops, limiting a flat spot to a single small area, much like ripstop fabric prevents tears from spreading. It's not too hard, in a moment of carelessness (or numb fingers, rocking boat, etc), to run your entire edge against something flattening a whole section of edge.

The tip of the knife, particularly on a PE, is one of the singularly most useful parts of the blade, as it is good for increasing pressure and piercing tough material. SE has many such points in the form of teeth instead. Both perform great when razor sharp, but SE continues to separate matter long after PE bounces off.
...

You touch on two important points imo!

- But the "teeth" not only protect the scallops when one gets "careless and bounce off something you shouldn´t have cut" but this is more of a general rule and imo a true advantage of SE:
- The "teeth" protect the actual edge inside the scallops in many, totally normal cutting situations: Especially when cutting on a surface/board, but also whenever a surface has to be broken to initate a cut, the teeth/points will do this before the actual edge can be dulled by that.
- One reason imo why SE stays sharp a lot longer than PE in my experience

- And yes, the "teeth" can be seen as a number of "tips", and thus cutting for example a plastic bottle without piercing it first with the "actual" tip works better with PE than with SE.
- But on top of that the "teeth" and the scallops actually form a row of little hawkbills that hook matter and cut into it from various angles, usually a pro for me