What is a "front flipper?"

[w3tnz]

If it's located at the front - forward of the pivot, I would consider it a front flipper, and Spyderco’s definition valid.
I don’t think top/bottom or (spine/edge) position, of the front is a defining factor, nor is the direction of motion. If it’s located further back, it’s just a flipper.

I am assuming you’re serious

[horzuff]

I was always thinking it described the location of the flipper in regard to the handle, there being front flippers (at the front edge of the handle), top filppers (that are at the top of the handle, not on either edge) and back flippers (that are at the back edge). Nothing to do with mode of actuation or how far forward it is.

[aicolainen]

It matters to me. There's a lot of variation in how folders are opened but I wouldn't call an assisted opening knife an automatic opening knife. We don't measure Behind the Edge thickness at the spine even though that is technically still a behind the edge measurement. If terminology doesn't matter then blade stock thickness and behind the edge thickness could just mean the same thing.

Defining terminology is always useful. Sometimes terminology that used to be relevant and descriptive loose relevance as progress in design and technology blur the lines of old.

Single action and double action triggers used to be a clear divide. With striker fired guns you'll find just about any degree of pre-cocked-ness. How many percent pre-cocked does the striker need to be before it crosses over from DA to SA?

Blade shapes is another. There are some archetypes that most of us can agree on, then there's all those that mix and match, and doesn't clearly fit in any of the established boxes. We still try to fit them into boxes of old, but at some point it becomes pointless.

The Mantra blurs the line, to some degree, but if you have to put it in one of the established boxes, I think Spyderco made the right decision.
Ultimately, the classic flipper to me, has a (in Mr. Shabazz's words) a defined pocket pecker that pecks in your pocket whilst being carried and protects your index pecker whilst being used (acts as a finger guard).

The Mantra 4 neither pecks nor protects. I'm fine with calling it a front flipper.
Or to put it another way, if the Matra 4 was described as a regular flipper and I (for some weird reason) had to buy just based on description and no images. I'd be surprised and disappointed to receive a Mantra 4 if I expected what I consider to be a "regular" flipper.

[ladybug93]

Flipper tab in front of the pivot = front flipper?

[riclaw]

Y'all are killin' it with the memes today. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels is still as funny today as it was decades ago.

[GarageBoy]

Spine side - front Flipper
Choil side - regular flipper

[BornIn1500]

IMG_3314.jpeg

See... I would rotate that knife a quarter turn clockwise and keep those labels where they are. Our definitions are different.

[Danke]

IMG_3314.jpeg

See... I would rotate that knife a quarter turn clockwise and keep those labels where they are. Our definitions are different.

In the commonly named OTF knives can you define what the F in OTF is short for? I need to settle a bet.

I know the O is short for Out and the T is short for The but the F is really puzzling me.

[w3tnz]

IMG_3314.jpeg

See... I would rotate that knife a quarter turn clockwise and keep those labels where they are. Our definitions are different.

It’s not my definition, it’s just basic understanding of the orientation of the object, from which measurements and features are specified.

[Wallach]

I definitely would not refer to the flipper on the Mantra as a front flipper. To me the whole point of separating something as a front flipper is that it has an intentionally designed flipper on the blade spine rather than the tang (which then puts the tension point to break the detent in front of the pivot rather than directly above or behind it).

[Ramonade]

I would not call it a front flipper either. Here's a NCIS season 4 level recreation here :



That's how I refer to these, back being what I call a flipper knife and that's all. The front being where the edge is facing. And about every other brands refers to them the same way.

The top flippers aren't too common. I remember seeing one with an antenna, it was so long it seemed like you could listen the the radio with it.

PS : I'm not right or wrong, that's how I roll that's it

PS 2 : great console

PS3 : yes I could have used the Mantra 4 picture instead of drawing this awful mess, but that's not fun !

[Mushroom]

If it's located at the front - forward of the pivot, I would consider it a front flipper, and Spyderco’s definition valid.
I don’t think top/bottom or (spine/edge) position, of the front is a defining factor, nor is the direction of motion. If it’s located further back, it’s just a flipper.

IMG_3314.jpeg

I am assuming you’re serious

Yes, I am serious.

That illustration is helpful and might be starting to clear up some of my confusion here.

What you have labeled as the bottom, is what I was considering the front. Primarily because so many knives advertised as front flippers have their flipper tabs positioned there. I thought the term front was being added as a distinction from the back, where "back locks" are located. I say that knowing the technical term is "Mid back lock" and a traditional back lock would have the lock positioned towards the end of the knife you have labeled as back.

I was always thinking it described the location of the flipper in regard to the handle, there being front flippers (at the front edge of the handle), top filppers (that are at the top of the handle, not on either edge) and back flippers (that are at the back edge). Nothing to do with mode of actuation or how far forward it is.

I like that. I think the third distinction for a top flipper could help make it more clear what a front flipper vs back flipper is.

It matters to me. There's a lot of variation in how folders are opened but I wouldn't call an assisted opening knife an automatic opening knife. We don't measure Behind the Edge thickness at the spine even though that is technically still a behind the edge measurement. If terminology doesn't matter then blade stock thickness and behind the edge thickness could just mean the same thing.

Defining terminology is always useful. Sometimes terminology that used to be relevant and descriptive loose relevance as progress in design and technology blur the lines of old.

Single action and double action triggers used to be a clear divide. With striker fired guns you'll find just about any degree of pre-cocked-ness. How many percent pre-cocked does the striker need to be before it crosses over from DA to SA?

Blade shapes is another. There are some archetypes that most of us can agree on, then there's all those that mix and match, and doesn't clearly fit in any of the established boxes. We still try to fit them into boxes of old, but at some point it becomes pointless.

The Mantra blurs the line, to some degree, but if you have to put it in one of the established boxes, I think Spyderco made the right decision.
Ultimately, the classic flipper to me, has a (in Mr. Shabazz's words) a defined pocket pecker that pecks in your pocket whilst being carried and protects your index pecker whilst being used (acts as a finger guard).

The Mantra 4 neither pecks nor protects. I'm fine with calling it a front flipper.
Or to put it another way, if the Matra 4 was described as a regular flipper and I (for some weird reason) had to buy just based on description and no images. I'd be surprised and disappointed to receive a Mantra 4 if I expected what I consider to be a "regular" flipper.

Great post, I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed response. Your point about how terminology changes with time definitely rings true in this case. I think there might be some overlap with the Mantra 4 flipper design that’s contributing to my confusion. As you put it, it blurs the lines between what I thought defined a front flipper and what actually qualifies it as one in practice.

Flipper tab in front of the pivot = front flipper?

Thats the millions dollar question!

A

or

B

Y'all are killin' it with the memes today. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels is still as funny today as it was decades ago.

It's a classic! Steve Martin was in some all timers.

IMG_3314.jpeg

See... I would rotate that knife a quarter turn clockwise and keep those labels where they are. Our definitions are different.

That is how I had always thought of it as well based on how so many front flippers currently on the market are labeled.

[RyanY]

I think it is amazing that we are having this conversation but after seeing the responses I understand why we need to. And, I would like to add, that @Mushroom has displayed wonderful humility and patience in this conversation.

On a fixed blade these directional terms are a bit simpler because the blade isn't rotating 180 degrees on an axis. However, I think (I hope) that most everyone agrees that the sharp side of the blade is the edge, and the side opposite of that is the spine. With those things established I would propose to define the front of the handle as the side that is on the same side as the sharp edge when the blade is open and it is the side of the handle that the edge of the blade enters when it folds shut. The back of the handle is the side of the handle that is contiguous with the spine of the blade when opened. This is also the side of the handle with the button to actuate a back lock such as a delica.

So, I believe that a front flipper has the flipper tab attached to the spine of the blade and a standard flipper has the tab attached to the edge side of the blade. What this means is that, when closed, a front flipper tab will protrude from the front of the handle along with the spydie hole and other parts of the blade spine in the closed position. A traditional flipper tab will protrude through an opening in the back of the handle, on the same side as the back lock's actuator. When a traditional flipper is opened then the tab is typically exposed on the front side of the handle in the choil/ricasso area. Meanwhile front flippers, because they are fixed to the spine of the knife, are usually designed to flow into the back of the handle when opened. This tendency of front flippers to have their flipper tab hidden when opened is actually also exhibited by the mantra 4 having it's back flipper so small that it flows into the front of the handle when open. However, this is a tendency of front flippers, and not a defining, required, or exclusive feature. The mantra 4 proves that a traditional flipper, if minimal in protrusion, can be mostly hidden when open but that doesn't make it a front flipper.

All of this is a potentially overly detailed way of saying that I agree with this image:


and I also agree with this image:



And in conclusion I think it was a simple typo or misunderstanding in the reveal catalogue. If Spyderco is looking to redefine the word front flipper then I will respectfully disagree and suggest that the entire knife industry as I am aware of it defines a front flipper as something that the mantra 4 is not, but they are free to call it what they want. I will never refer to the mantra 4 as a front flipper unless coerced.

[Danke]

[RamZar]

I prefer to call them “top flipper” rather than “front flipper”. Part of the reason for their design was not to have “big” flipper tab sticking out from the side. There are variations to the “top flipper” opening and some stick out too far from the top and makes them aesthetically less pleasing. The best ones can be opened like Bic lighter. I only have one where the “top flipper” tab is very nearly flush with the frame: WE Eidolon Integral CF.

[horzuff]

I prefer to call them “top flipper” rather than “front flipper”. Part of the reason for their design was not to have “big” flipper tab sticking out from the side. There are variations to the “top flipper” opening and some stick out too far from the top and makes them aesthetically less pleasing. The best ones can be opened like Bic lighter. I only have one where the “top flipper” tab is very nearly flush with the frame: WE Eidolon Integral CF.

Top flippers are a separate thing altogether, whether they are discreet like on the Eidolon or more pronounced like on one of the Liong Mah Kuf versions.

Now for someone to design a bottom flipper, to open our knives with our pinkies in a normal grip

[Paul Ardbeg]

Maybe we can settle on the Mantra 4 having a multi purpose-non pocket pecking-flipper tab? MPNPP flipper tab for short.

[Aladinsane]

Flipper?

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

I wrote the copy, so here's my perspective...

The original flipper design was created by the late custom knifemaker Kit Carson and is epitomized by the CRKT M-16 design. It is characterized by an integral tab or lever that extends from the edge side of the blade. In the closed position, it protrudes from the back of the handle. When stroked by the index finger, it opens the blade.

Carson's original flipper--and most that initially followed it--were fairly pronounced and typically oriented at a right angle to the length of the blade. As more makers experimented with the concept, the shape of the flipped evolved--as did the technique of operating it. Some worked better with a pushing motion at the end of the tab, but the tab was still quite proud of the handle and often served as a guard when the knife was open.

Later, knives like the Smock emerged. Instead of a protruding tab, the corner of the handle was relieved to expose the corner of the blade at the top of the ricasso. Sleek and minimalist, this style of flipper required a slightly different technique--reaching the index finger around to the front of the closed knife to index the corner of the blade and pulling to gain leverage. Because the contact point of the index finger was on the front of the closed blade ("front" perceived as the closed knife facing away from you), it became known as a "front flipper." This concept also evolved to encompass other designs that took various shapes, but did not include a prominent tab extending at a right angle to the blade's centerline.

In simple terms, if there is no protruding tab and your finger must index the front of the closed blade to achieve leverage, the design could logically be considered a front opener. Having actually handled and opened the Mantra 4, I can confirm it fits this description.

A quick Internet search on "front flipper" will confirm that the term is already in common use in the knife industry. It will also show that it is being applied to a wide range of knife designs--most of which don't have prominent flipper tabs like Kit Carson's original designs.

If you really want to get granular about terminology, you'd need to go back and consider knives that had protruding tabs on the spine side of the blade--like the Paul Fox Desert Fox and his other custom designs, the Rapid (which some say dates back to the 1930's), and its later expression, the SARCO Roll-X. Since they pre-dated the flipper concept by many decades, their operation should take historical precedence and form the foundation of baseline definitions. Unfortunately, most people don't embrace or respect that history. It's like the term "reverse tanto." That's a "made-up" term coined by people too ignorant of history to know what a lambfoot blade shape is.

Stay safe,

Mike

[thuyenbuom]

Very well written and Informative post...thank you Mr. Janich!

"Later, knives like the Smock emerged. Instead of a protruding tab, the corner of the handle was relieved to expose the corner of the blade at the top of the ricasso. Sleek and minimalist, this style of flipper required a slightly different technique--reaching the index finger around to the front of the closed knife to index the corner of the blade and pulling to gain leverage. Because the contact point of the index finger was on the front of the closed blade ("front" perceived as the closed knife facing away from you), it became known as a "front flipper."
cheers
Thuyền