Please advise me on serrated edges

[Wartstein]

Thanks for the link, Wartstein!

Having chipped a SE tooth making kindling on a Manix 2....

I am sure you mistyped and actually mean another model?!

There sadly still is no Manix 2 in SE ((but I think) a comboedge variant? Perhaps you have one of those? Or even the long disco'ed hollow grind SE Manix?)

[zhyla]

I am sure you mistyped and actually mean another model?!

There sadly still is no Manix 2 in SE ((but I think) a comboedge variant? Perhaps you have one of those? Or even the long disco'ed hollow grind SE Manix?)

Mine is combo edge. But there absolutely was an SE version.

[Michael Janich]

"However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong."

Does anyone have a physical explanation for what Mr. Janich is claiming here? It sounds... false.

Having chipped a SE tooth making kindling on a Manix 2, I think it's still something to keep in mind. Ebay is full of SE knives with bad teeth. They just don't take abuse as well as PE.

I did not claim that serrated edges take abuse as well as plain edges.

If you consider the typical V-ground Spyderco knife, it will have a terminal edge geometry of about 34 degrees (included angle). A typical serrated edge, which is chisel ground, will be about half that. More acute edge geometry cuts better, but is more fragile. A plain edge ground to a 17-degree included angle would be very fragile because it is uniformly thin along its entre length. A serrated edge, however, can be thought of as many short sections of plain edge, with raised ridges in between. Those ridges give the entire edge greater structural strength. Nevertheless, the points of the teeth will remain structurally the weakest point. However, breaking off a point does not negate the cutting function of the edge within each scallop.

Sal's comment that serrated edges cut better after having been sharpened a few times also subtly highlights the fact that the points of the teeth not only can cause the edge to snag, they are also the weakest points of the edge. Repeated sharpenings make the points less prominent and the edge cuts better.

Yes, Ebay is full of SE knives with bad teeth. It's also full of people who don't know the difference between serrated knives and saws. Even with broken teeth, however, those knives will still cut if the rest of the edge is properly sharpened.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Albertaboyscott]

I'd advise you buy one. Using one for a length of time will make you a believer. I've had a stretch2 xl serrated in my pocket for work, for about 6months now and don't plan on changing back.
My boss used mine a couple days ago to cut a thick strap. He couldn't get over how fast it cut through and his comment was "wow. This knife is freaking amazing" . I might get him one for Xmas if there a sale.

[benben]

For years I avoided serrated edges like the.....well you know! Didn't want to deal with what I thought was a hassle to sharpen, I couldn't have been more wrong! I can sharpen / touch up a serrated edge in a 1/4 to 1/3 of the time compared to a plain edge with the Sharpmaker.

I heard everyone sing the praises of the SE Pacific Salt for years which I pretty much ignored, but there was a first gen yellow Pacific Salt at my LGS that was priced really well, so I took it home. Man my eyes were really opened that very day at the insane performance that knife offered, I cleaned around 40' or 50' of fence wrapped up in vines like it was nothing, very impressive!

I now own probably 10 serrated Spyderco's, including the SE K390 LeafJumper that you're looking at which is actually in my pocket right now, it's a top 3 knife for me, love it!

Serrated edges aren't for everyone, and you may not like them, but you've got to get at least one just to try! Keep it around for nasty work, wet abrasive rope, zip-ties, yardwork, or playtime like in the pool, or at the lake or beach. Not to mention fishing duties.

I'm loving my SE K390 LeafJumper, but don't overlook a serrated Salt in either H1 or LC200N, both are really tough steels and an absolute breeze to sharpen! And they just cut forever it seems!

[Aladinsane]

For years I avoided serrated edges like the.....well you know! Didn't want to deal with what I thought was a hassle to sharpen, I couldn't have been more wrong! I can sharpen / touch up a serrated edge in a 1/4 to 1/3 of the time compared to a plain edge with the Sharpmaker.

I heard everyone sing the praises of the SE Pacific Salt for years which I pretty much ignored, but there was a first gen yellow Pacific Salt at my LGS that was priced really well, so I took it home. Man my eyes were really opened that very day at the insane performance that knife offered, I cleaned around 40' or 50' of fence wrapped up in vines like it was nothing, very impressive!

I now own probably 10 serrated Spyderco's, including the SE K390 LeafJumper that you're looking at which is actually in my pocket right now, it's a top 3 knife for me, love it!

Serrated edges aren't for everyone, and you may not like them, but you've got to get at least one just to try! Keep it around for nasty work, wet abrasive rope, zip-ties, yardwork, or playtime like in the pool, or at the lake or beach. Not to mention fishing duties.

I'm loving my SE K390 LeafJumper, but don't overlook a serrated Salt in either H1 or LC200N, both are really tough steels and an absolute breeze to sharpen! And they just cut forever it seems!

A serrated knife for playtime in the pool?? That’s hard core!!!

[vivi]

I'd try one out if I were you.

If nothing else its a good skill to learn - knowing how to sharpen them.

I typically carry only PE knives. They work better for me for general use and the specific tasks you mentioned. But I've learned I can make PE, CE or SE work for 95% of the cutting tasks I do.

I wouldn't want to use SE for any complex wood carving, but they can make feather sticks or wood shavings to start a fire just fine.

For food prep they work well for some things but in general I find them less efficient because I often have to finish each cut with a slice to cleanly separate the pieces of food.

The two biggest draw backs for me are the snaggy nature of many serrations, and being so limited in sharpening mediums.

Sure, you can tune SE knives so their edges snag less, but why go through the trouble if for your uses they don't offer clear advantages over PE?

For sharpening, it's basically sharpmaker rods, sandpaper wrapped around a ruler, or the congress triangle stones.

PE there are so many more options for sharpening. Last night I reprofiled the plain edge part of a CE S0V knife. It was really slow using diamond sharpmaker rods. Still too slow using a coarse DMT. So I stepped down to a 120 grit diamond plate from chefknivestogo and knocked it out in five minutes.

Another massive drawback for me is I can't use a belt sander to reprofile SE. That's such a game changer for me, saving me so much time.

I think everyone should experiment with them, but you may end up finding PE still works best for you like I did. I feel a PE knife with a very coarse edge (200-400 grit) has most the advantages of SE without the drawbacks.

One nice thing about SE is they come ground very thin at the edge.

I do not understand why companies are willing to put out 15-20 degree inclusive edges on SE knives, but then run the exact same models in the exact same steels often times twice as thick in their PE versions. If Spyderco is confident a SE Endura in VG10 can be ground at 18 degrees inclusive, why don't they feel the same about PE VG10 Enduras? Confusing to me.

Regarding the SE Manix 2, I don't think that steel and grind was the best combo for SE. I managed to chip one out slicing through a 2 liter bottle when I was breaking down plastics for recycling. Factory edge. I owned one back when they first came out, maybe 2009 or so? I sold it when the XL version hit the market the next year. I wanted to preview the Manix line with a new lock.

[TimButterfield]

Serrated edges are ground on the show side, so they actually work better when used left-handed for cuts like that.

This makes me wonder whether being right-handed vs left-handed affects the preference between PE and SE. Has there been a poll on this? RH prefer PE, RH prefer SE, LH prefer PE, LH prefer SE

[zhyla]

I did not claim that serrated edges take abuse as well as plain edges.

... Nevertheless, the points of the teeth will remain structurally the weakest point.

Thanks for the clarification. Everything you said makes sense... as long as it's clear to the user that teeth are disposable. It's also implied in that explanation that you are slicing/sawing thru material. The teeth don't provide any protection in a push cut, depending on the material.

I do not understand why companies are willing to put out 15-20 degree inclusive edges on SE knives, but then run the exact same models in the exact same steels often times twice as thick in their PE versions. If Spyderco is confident a SE Endura in VG10 can be ground at 18 degrees inclusive, why don't they feel the same about PE VG10 Enduras?

We'd probably need a knew thread and I'd need to draw a 3d model and slice it up a few ways to really explain, especially for people who aren't used to thinking about 3d geometry. But I suspect (1) Spyderco has a lot of empirical data on sharpening angles and user damage and (2) the nominal grind angle is not the angle the serrations generally see when doing slicing cuts. The sides of the teeth are actually seeing much more obtuse angles when you are dragging the serrations thru something.

That's also why you see damage in the valleys and the tips but rarely on the slopes of the serrations.

I'll draw some pictures one of these days if the description doesn't make sense.

Regarding the SE Manix 2, I don't think that steel and grind was the best combo for SE. I managed to chip one out slicing through a 2 liter bottle when I was breaking down plastics for recycling.

Could be. Mine has chipped a little in the valleys of the serrations. It's also seen the most serious use of any of my knives except possibly the SE Tenacious. No complaints really, though I did have to spend a lot of time with a coarse sharpmaker stone to repair it.

[Wartstein]

I am sure you mistyped and actually mean another model?!

There sadly still is no Manix 2 in SE ((but I think) a comboedge variant? Perhaps you have one of those? Or even the long disco'ed hollow grind SE Manix?)

Mine is combo edge. But there absolutely was an SE version.

Yes, the "long discoed hollow grind Manix SE" I mentioned in my previous post.
Wish it was still available...I'd definitely get one, despite I much prefer the LW over the G10, but for full SE I'd gladly take the latter...

[Wartstein]

...

I decided to go with a Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10 because I like the design of the knife and they will be on clearance as a soon to be extinct species.
...

Good choice!!

Had one too, and it has a great type of serrations (and is a great model overall anyway).

I am convinced you'll love its sheer cutting performance - and should you not (though I almost can't imagine that) with this edge, then you know that serrations are not for you.

[benben]

...

I decided to go with a Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10 because I like the design of the knife and they will be on clearance as a soon to be extinct species.
...

Good choice!!

Had one too, and it has a great type of serrations (and is a great model overall anyway).

I am convinced you'll love its sheer cutting performance - and should you not (though I almost can't imagine that) with this edge, then you know that serrations are not for you.

^^^^^ He's absolutely right, if you end up not liking a serrated LeafJumper, then serrations are not your cup of tea!

[Wartstein]

...

^^^^^ He's absolutely right, if you end up not liking a serrated LeafJumper, then serrations are not your cup of tea!

Yes, it has pretty much the same "shallow", "non snaggy" kind of serrations as the Endela SE. Perfect imo, also in tasks many would assume PE should work better.

Even if one happens to prefer other platforms over Leafjumper or Endela, imo these two models in SE are 100% worth of keeping "just" as great, super-efficient tools (in a tool box or whatever) that will keep on separating matter for a long,long time even without sharpening.

[Evil D]

I know you said finger choils aren't your thing but I like to recommend based on what I find to be easiest to sharpen, because that's going to really effect your opinion overall, and lately one of the best I've used out of the box is a Native Salt in MagnaCut. I think it's important to be able to sharpen them on the Sharpmaker right out of the box without needing to do any reprofiling and though my sample size is only a Native 5 and a Chief, it seems like Golden are grinding the serrations on these knives the same way.

I decided to go with a Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10 because I like the design of the knife and they will be on clearance as a soon to be extinct species.

Who knows?

I might really become a true believer in the SE and look at other models, including the ones you suggested. Btw, I do own a Sharpmaker.

Thanks!

You picked a good one. Remember if it snags just sharpen it a few times. Serrations tend to break in over time and sharpenings and get better.

[benben]

I know you said finger choils aren't your thing but I like to recommend based on what I find to be easiest to sharpen, because that's going to really effect your opinion overall, and lately one of the best I've used out of the box is a Native Salt in MagnaCut. I think it's important to be able to sharpen them on the Sharpmaker right out of the box without needing to do any reprofiling and though my sample size is only a Native 5 and a Chief, it seems like Golden are grinding the serrations on these knives the same way.

I decided to go with a Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10 because I like the design of the knife and they will be on clearance as a soon to be extinct species.

Who knows?

I might really become a true believer in the SE and look at other models, including the ones you suggested. Btw, I do own a Sharpmaker.

Thanks!

You picked a good one. Remember if it snags just sharpen it a few times. Serrations tend to break in over time and sharpenings and get better.

Awesome, I have both a serrated VG-10 RockJumper and a K390 LeafJumper, just excellent knives! And not just the serrations....the action, the geometry, the lockup, the forward handle, they're just a great design!

[Snacktime]

I find that on large straight edge knifes without a lot of belly I really like the serrated edge. The first cardboard box will be a completely different experience. You will love or hate it! Tomatoes are another item to try cutting before passing final judgement. I am fully addicted to my k390 serrated police 4.

[Studiousworkman]

Among my several Spydercos my VG-10 Leaf Jumper has become one of my favorites. Finger choils never really “did it” for me, so most of my others are Delicas and Enduras. To each their own, I suppose.

With the demise of the Leaf Jumper I went ahead and ordered another PE, but in K390. That got me curious about serrated edges. With the exception of one Victorinox Spartan Serrated that I rarely use I have never owned a knife with a serrated edge. It always seemed that serrated edges would be a hassle to maintain. Maybe I am wrong.

I am retired. My days of breaking down cardboard boxes and busting pallet straps are long gone.The greatest demands my knives now face are camping chores such as notching and making feather sticks and occasional outdoor food prep.

Would serrated edges be worthwhile for someone like me? How about ease or difficulty in sharpening and maintaining the edge?

If worthwhile I will probably order a third Leaf Jumper, but in SE. Who knows? Maybe even an Endura SE K390 or Pacific Salt might be in my future!

Thanks in advance for sharing your advice and experience.

In my experience, Spyderco really does make some exceptional serrated edge knives and they are SHARP. I recently bought the Native Chief Lightweight in Magnacut fully serrated and cut myself really good the first time I used it. It cuts effortlessly through material and it comes with such a keen edge from the factory.

With a Magnacut Fully Serrated blade, you wouldn't need to sharpen much at all because the edge retention with Spyderco's heat treat is going to be superb. However, if you do need to sharpen it, I have read and heard that Magnacut is not bad to sharpen and produces a clean burr when re-sharpening. Plus, the serrated edge should be easier because 1. Each serration is like its own scallop which is "chisel ground" for lack of a better comparison so you only have to sharpen one side. 2. I don't remember who made the post (but you can find it), there's a Spyderco forum which some serrated edge enthusiast went into amazing and vast detail about serrated edges being superior to plain edges. Research it and check it out! You will be thrilled that you bought one of these.

P.S. It might be this forum: "Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives"

[Wartstein]

... 2. I don't remember who made the post (but you can find it), there's a Spyderco forum which some serrated edge enthusiast went into amazing and vast detail about serrated edges being superior to plain edges. Research it and check it out! You will be thrilled that you bought one of these.

P.S. It might be this forum: "Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives"

You mean the two threads I linked in a previous post in this thread, can´t hurt to do it again, cause both threads are really good and one can learn a lot from them:

1.) Davids "SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth" viewtopic.php?p=1364190#p1364190
2.) Vivis "Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives" viewtopic.php?p=1349519#p1349519

[JD Spydo]

If you can by chance get your hands on the 2022 Sprint Run of the C-60 Ayoob model in Cruwear blade steel in SE that will make your day. Since I've been using the full SE version of the Cruwear C-60 Ayoob as my main EDC I've yet to take on any cutting job that I couldn't handle.

I truly think that the two most perfect Spyderco serrated blades are the Cruwear C-60 Ayoob and the newest Cruwear TEMPERANCE 1 fixed blade that was just released. Oh there are many other really good full SE Spyderco blades out there but those 2 you can't go wrong with for almost any cutting jobs IMO.

For real rough jobs I've always enjoyed using my 1998 era, Stainless Handled RESCUE model with ATS-55 blade steel. It's still one of my most favorite Spyderco folders for difficult jobs.