Spyderco Native Chief Lightweight Observations

[zhyla]

inflation is a thing, but I think what Vivi is saying is he wants to spend less than half the price of a handgun on what in the end is a few pieces of well engineered steel and plastic.

[vivi]

In the 1990's I never spent more than $40 on a knife. The most expensive ones I bought were a Victorinox Deluxe Tinker for $25 and a Buck 110 for $35.

The first $100+ knife I bought was a Spyderco, an S60V Military.

The knives I've bought that approached $200?

Police 4 G10/K390, Scrapyard Dogfather S7, Tsunehisa super blue gyuto, Street Beat original run, M390 Military, C95 Manix sprint, 4V Manix XL's, M4 Manix XL's, 4V Native Chief....basically all Spydercos.

edit: thought of more. 2x szabo folders, a hossom forester, s90v / cf military.

All the other brand knives I buy have been under $130.

I'm aware of inflation. I'm also not accusing Spyderco of being greedy or price gouging. I admire Sal a lot and I don't think that is how he would run his company.

I'm simply saying that when I step outside Spyderco knives and look at the market as a whole, I see diminishing returns. I see no good reason to spend $200+ on a single knife.

I can meet any of my cutting needs below that and still get very high performance.

$80 CPM3V camp knife
$180 Aogami Super 10" Gyuto
$80 Leatherman Rebar
$20 CS/Lasher Machete
$50 Fiskars chopping axe (up from $35 a decade ago)

etc.

Are there higher performing products than these?

Sure.

But these meet my needs, easily.

[ladybug93]

the point though is that $200 could get you 4 cold steel knives that will all be better than this native chief. or, at least if they share some of the issues, it's more understandable because they are cheaper. vivi is 100% right about the triad lock lockup vs spyderco backlocks, and he's right about his value judgement as well.

i love spyderco knives and have enjoyed collecting and being a part of this forum, but i really hate to see the spyder going the way of the butterfly.

[vivi]

the point though is that $200 could get you 4 cold steel knives that will all be better than this native chief. or, at least if they share some of the issues, it's more understandable because they are cheaper. vivi is 100% right about the triad lock lockup vs spyderco backlocks, and he's right about his value judgement as well.

i love spyderco knives and have enjoyed collecting and being a part of this forum, but i really hate to see the spyder going the way of the butterfly.

I actually had a long section comparing the Chief LW to some of my recent purchases that I cut out, but I'll paste a bit of it here. I wanted to avoid this being a CS vs Spydie thread.

Here are my two previous knife purchases prior to buying the Chief LW. With receipts.

Those are 2024 prices. I overpaid for New Old Stock (Note the pre-GSM logos). I can get those same knives in their current form for $88 and $50 respectively.

So lets examine these two folders that combined cost less than the Chief LW:

One is G10 and DLC CPM S35VN for $90-120. It is perfectly centered. It has no play whatsoever. Yet operation is very smooth. The backspacer is flush with the scales, much better than my G10 DLC Chiefs. The clip works well - it grabs tight but has a smooth draw. The full edge is sharpened (but I hate the sharpening notch to be fair). The contoured G10 blows away my hand sanded G10 Chiefs and frankly any Spyderco aside from the Shaman (DLC Shamans use comparable materials and cost over 3x what these can be bought for).

The other is FRN with aluminum liners and CTS BD1 steel. Very comparable to the Chief LW materials for 1/3 the price. Scale contouring is beyond comparison with the Chief. Well centered. Some of the smoothest action of any folder I own. Fully sharpened edge (another icky notch though). No lock stick, while my LW Chief shows some (something I didn't mention). Stop pin flush with the scales while the stop pin on my Chief LW isn't (again, something I forgot to mention is post #1 - Here's a photo.) To be fair, this folder had some of the worst clip action of any knife I've ever owned, requiring me to sand under the clip to get it well tuned. But, this is a $50-60 knife, not a $170-200 retail priced knife.

Do I want to be buying this brand?

No.

They have their own issues too. I strongly prefer the spydie hole to studs. Spyderco is easier to get parts from (I can't order a spare recon clip from GSM, I tried.) I like Spyderco as a company better and I like supporting Made In USA.

But if I'm paying 2-3x the price, I want 2-3x the quality.

Instead, what I'm finding is actually the opposite with a lot of details like blade play, centering, scale contouring and so forth.

[zhyla]

But if I'm paying 2-3x the price, I want 2-3x the quality.

I don’t think this is possible anymore. You can pay for better designs. You can pay for made in USA. But you can’t pay for quality because the volume makers are cranking out basically perfect knives at $60. A lot of this has to do with the rise of CNC machining.

This is a good thing.

I hate to see this very useful thread derailed by the Spyderco pricing dead horse. But I will say this: I like my $60 Astute waaaay more than I like my Native Chief LW. But that has more to do with the Astute being a very polished design (with a clip specific to that model).

[vivi]

edit: nevermind, I was off topic.

[Naperville]

The clip needs to be slightly longer. That would solve the problem.

Agreed.

Making new molds is obviously impractical. But the issue could be remedied with longer clips for knives like this and the Police Lightweight.

Mine arrived today with the same issues. Might take it apart and try to remedy the action/centering.

Somehow feels sturdier than the Stretch2 XL FRN

Agreed. The Chief LW feels a little more rigid in the handle than the Stretch XL Salt.

Both are folders I really expected to like, and honestly thought they'd replace my Pacific Salts.

But after sleeping on it, I'm returning my Chief LW and sticking to my Pacific Salt 1's for my lightweight folder of choice.

"I've been collecting knives since about 1991, and in that time I have always held by a price rule - $200 or less for each individual knife."



Good luck with that plan after 33 years of inflation and improvements to manufacturing and raw materials.

I don't think you care about being put on full blast. My comments are not that in any case, and I am not name calling.

I own most of the Spyderco Native Chiefs, some I own 2, 3, and 4 copies of each model. Knid of dragging my feet on the lessor steels. I'll probably own 3+ of each Magnacut model.

$200 seems like a lot of money doesn't it? BUT IT ISN'T ANYMORE IS IT? I can get 1.5 to 2 full plastic bags of groceries for $200US. Your comments are nonsense in this respect.

I do not look at any of my knives as carefully or critically as most people, but I do agree or at least want the very best for my money. Look at what you get from other manufacturers for $200. Most of the knives that I want are under $600, but almost all of them except Spyderco are over $450.

With self defense in mind and worried about a failed open or a dropped knife, I open almost all of them with two hands. I can use my forearms and elbows to protect the knife until it is open and ready to be used.

I've owned at least $20,000 in knives. Never adjusted the pivot on any one of them. Centering from every manufacturer has been passable, most perfect.

I do not care about knife weight, never did. A heavier knife is usually a more robust better made knife.

If Spyderco makes all of the changes you desire, the Spyderco Native Chief knives will all be around $275+. But that would not slow me down. I'll keep buying whatever and whenever I can. A $30-90 knife would use steel I would not touch with a 10ft pole.

Respectfully, I do not think you understand knife steels as well as you seem to think.

You carry knives for self defense. A knife used for self defense is best designed with a steel built for toughness. Yet you often choose steels built for edge retention when slicing abrasive materials rather than toughness optimized steels. The steels you often purchase are more likely to chip than a lot of budget steels like 1095 and 420 series.

Either way, let's take a look at some knives I've purchased in the $30-90 range, strictly within the 2020's.

- 3V 5" fixed blade made in taiwan for $45
- 3V 6" fixed blade made in taiwan for $80
- A2 @ 61rc 3" fixed blade made in USA for $75
- S35VN folder made in Taiwan for $88
- White #1 6" petty from japan for $75
- VG10 Damascus petty 5.5" from japan for $65
- SK5 5-7" fixed blades from taiwan for $24-32
- 1055 machetes from south africa 10-21" for $15-35
- BD1 4" folder from taiwan for $55
- AUS10 4"-5.5" folders from taiwan for $40-55
- 420HC Leathermans from USA for $30-80


3V would be an ideal steel for dynamic impacts against bone I would imagine. What makes that steel unsuitable for you?

420HC is much tougher than say, S90V or K390 if I remember correctly. Wouldn't that be more optimized for how you use your knives?

A2 is similar to a non CPM cruwear. It's very tough while offering better edge retention than 1095.

1055 is extremely tough. It's used in machetes and axes. I don't know of many S90V machetes?

Regardless, I think guns and running shoes are better than knives for self defense, so I've never understood your mind set here.

To ask these questions and make these statements I don't get it, why didn't you just ask me? A typical prison hit results in 30 to 60 slashes and an equal number of thrusts in about 60 seconds. The knives leave shallow wounds, and the opponent bleeds out. I suppose I'd do something similar if attacked but I do not think that I need a knife for dealing with 1 on 1 situations. I certainly would use a knife if the opponent had a weapon, was huge, or there was more than one opponent.

I mostly carry 4 inch folders, not machetes. HaIf of my training is in 3 to 6 inch blades, the other half is in 28 to 36 inch long machetes/espadas and swords. What you do with a short blade is not what you do with a long blade. With a long blade sure take a hand off at the wrist that requires a tough steel. With a short blade slash at the jugular, the throat, the ears, the femoral arteries near the groin, a soft belly.

I'm not worried about the knife snapping or breaking, I am going into soft tissue, muscle and fat with a folder and I may need to repetitively cut through or pierce a shirt. If I really thought I was going into a battlezone, I'd probably carry a 24 to 28 inch blade not a folder.

3V makes a nice 24 to 36 inch blade for me, not looking for a 4 inch folder in 3V. Maybe a 12 inch Magnucut or 3V 1ft long knife too.

At one time I owned a dozen high quality firearms and I sold them all and everything that I owned to create an opportunity for me to work in Silicon Valley, California. I left Chicago on a 2001 Suzuki GSX-R750 and took a small backpack(tent, sleeping bag, change of clothes) and a small box of Cisco administrative books. I did not take a knife or firearm with me, this was pre knife training.

In 1998 I started to have problems with depression and by 2002 with everything going on in my life with work (Dir of Bioinformatics stealing the co's data, the killing the VP of the Business unit, getting ripped off for $35,000 by co) it developed into schizoaffective disorder, type 1 depressive, so my days of owning firearms is oficially over unless something magical happens and my 2nd Amendment rights are restored. I'm not worried. I do not need a firearm, and when I say that I do not need one I mean it. My depressions and everything is fine and under control.

[Naperville]

inflation is a thing, but I think what Vivi is saying is he wants to spend less than half the price of a handgun on what in the end is a few pieces of well engineered steel and plastic.

Most of the firearms that I owned in 1990 through 2000, were $900 to $1500 each. The only cheap firearm that I owned had an initial cost of $125, and SKS in cosmoline, and then I put $200 into it.

What kind of firearms are you buying for under $200?

[vivi]

inflation is a thing, but I think what Vivi is saying is he wants to spend less than half the price of a handgun on what in the end is a few pieces of well engineered steel and plastic.

Most of the firearms that I owned in 1990 through 2000, were $900 to $1500 each. The only cheap firearm that I owned had an initial cost of $125, and SKS in cosmoline, and then I put $200 into it.

What kind of firearms are you buying for under $200?

Well, the last shotgun I bought brand new cost less than a BD1N Chief LW normally runs - viewtopic.php?p=1457790#p1457790

The last gun I bought was a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 2.0 .380

It was $400 before tax.

Magnacut Chiefs are half that.

Got a $25 Buck 110 Lightweight in the mail Made in USA.

[Flash]

Thanks for the write up.

I was looking to buy a Native Chief LW in Magnacut but after reading this review I’m not entirely convinced it’s the knife for me.

Paying an increased cost for your Spydercos is inevitable in this economy, but doing so whilst the quality declines is an incredibly bitter pill to swallow.
As a knife enthusiast and a Spyderco fan I’m finding it increasingly difficult to pay the asking prices for knives that are fired out the factory with mis-matched parts and little in the way quality control or have suffered in the way of cost cutting measures.

Why is the clip not aligned with the landing pad on this model? …I think I already know the answer - because Spyderco are using a generic off the shelf clip not meant for this particular FRN model. More expense redesigning a new clip - cost cutting.

Why is there suddenly a 2mm length left unsharpened, clearly without any attempt to grind an edge bevel on some Golden models? Cost cutting? Or Poor QC?

Why is Spyderco sending knives out with the blades off centre? Cost cutting? Or poor QC?

Why is Spyderco sending knives out where you have to choose between easy opening or blade play? Cost cutting? or poor QC?

Spyderco, please don’t let your standards keep slipping whilst upping the cost. It doesn’t encourage people to keep on buying your knives.

[ladybug93]

i've never expected my spyderco knives to be perfect. i do agree that the more expensive they are, the better they should be though.

what really made me start stepping back was paying premium prices for a sprint run that ended up having known and widespread qc issues and then being told it was to help a maker learn how to make knives. noble endeavor for sure, but not one that you should decide to make your loyal customers pay the high cost for. every knife that has come through this maker has been a sprint run and has had problems, but we're supposed to be okay with that because they are "minor" issues and it's for the good cause of someone else's practice. i don't think it's unreasonable to expect better than that from a company that has earned our trust and much of our hard-earned money.

at the end of the day, the manix is still my favorite knife design of all time. i still love the fact that the salt line exists and will probably never go a day (unless i'm flying) without one in my waistband. spyderco changed the way i carry knives. they changed my expectations for a good knife. unfortunately, they're just starting to fall short of their own high bar lately while cheaper brands are simultaneously nailing at least 95% of the quality (and in some cases doing better) for as low as 33% of the cost.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

What would you all think, vivi, Naperville,sal and others, of these?

1 a Byrd Native Chief.
2 a Hawksbill Native Chief.

[Jesla]

What would you all think, vivi, Naperville,sal and others, of these?

1 a Byrd Native Chief.
2 a Hawksbill Native Chief.

I don’t think I understand, you are suggesting replacing the round hole with a not round hole?… And curve the blade so it doesn’t fit in the handle?

I should, at my age, embrace my confusion…. (shakes head) walking away mumbling to myself….

[Naperville]

What would you all think, vivi, Naperville,sal and others, of these?

1 a Byrd Native Chief.
2 a Hawksbill Native Chief.

NOPE.

I like what Spyderco produces right now. I'm trying to buy as many as I can. I want a drawer full.

[Polecat]

Wow, great write up! Very thought provoking. I am now considering a LW Chief!

[kerrcobra]

A lot of us have raised this issue. It’s a problem. I’m just going to leave it at that.

I agree with all of what you wrote. I have the same clip placement issue on the Native 5 LW when having it configured for tip-up carry. When switching the clip to tip down (ew ), the clip lands right in the center of the smooth pad. I'm not much of a fan of the Native 5 or N5 LW, because it's too block-y, but in general, I much prefer FRN over G10, so I am a little disappointed to see that the Native Chief LW has that same issue, but I will likely put a deep carry clip on it anyway. I've been looking forward to the Chief LW FRN handles so that I can swap my Rex45 blade into a blue FRN handle. At least the Chief LW appears to use the standard 3 hole positioning as the rest of the majority of Spydercos. The N5 LW abomination uses some entirely different clip screw pattern which prevents just swapping it out for one of the many existing, deep carry, 3 hole clips I already own.

[zhyla]

Just for completeness, here is the thread I made about this knife a few months ago: thread

The main thing it has that this thread doesn’t is some shots of the internals of the knife and my personal opinion that this knife should not have a choil.

[Drubieg]

I got a great example I guess, cus mine has zero side blade play, action is great (nearly fully drop shut), and perfect centering. It also is sharpened all the way back but that’s probably because it’s serrated.

I have mixed feelings about all of the concerns here, mainly cus none of these ever bothered me much. But I understand why y’all have them and you’re allowed to. I love this design and Bd1n is great to sharpen

[vivi]

Just for completeness, here is the thread I made about this knife a few months ago: thread

The main thing it has that this thread doesn’t is some shots of the internals of the knife and my personal opinion that this knife should not have a choil.

Thanks. Your thread is a good read.

I feel like non-choil folks are a minority here, but I agree.

On knives like the Dragonfly they make a lot of sense. They enable a four finger grip on what would otherwise be a three finger knife for most people.



For knives like the Chief and Manix XL, where nearly every human can get a full four finger grip, I think more cutting edge makes sense.

There is nothing I do with a pocket knife where I need to choke up an extra 1/2" to 1" to get the job done.

But there are many situations where I'd appreciate more edge.

I find that in general when I choke up to get closer to the edge, I don't use the cutting edge right next to the handle - defeating the purpose. That's a good way to cut yourself when slicing up cardboard or get splinters when carving wood.

I suppose I can see some utility in them for finer tip control, but again there's nothing I use a 4" bladed pocket knife for where getting my hand 1/2" closer to the tip is critical enough to sacrifice cutting edge.

My most used knives are 10" chef knives and I have no issue controlling their tips. So the emphasis some folks put on choking up is a little odd to me.

All that said, the index choil on the Chief is more comfortable to use for me than most Spydercos. I like to extend my thumb about an inch past where my index finger grips the handle, and the humpless design facilitates that. One of the reasons I like this model so much.

I got a great example I guess, cus mine has zero side blade play, action is great (nearly fully drop shut), and perfect centering. It also is sharpened all the way back but that’s probably because it’s serrated.

I have mixed feelings about all of the concerns here, mainly cus none of these ever bothered me much. But I understand why y’all have them and you’re allowed to. I love this design and Bd1n is great to sharpen

I used to be a lot less picky about blade play. But I've been noticing a trend with Spyderco folders since about the time I picked up my first Pacific Salt 2.

Most their knives I own, especially lightweights, either have side to side play, or I have to set the pivot screw so tight opening and closing is extra sluggish.

Just like on this LW Chief. There is no setting where there's zero side to side play and opening feels the same as when the pivot is a bit loose.

Again, it used to not bother me so much, but if Spyderco is going to sell these lightweight linerless folders for $150-200, I want action to be better than $20-50 folders from other companies.

In reality I find it to be the opposite. I have $30 knives with zero play in any direction. So I'm not ok with having play in every direction on a $200 magnacut Chief, which I would expect to be the case based on my experience with this BD1N version.

I agree the steel sharpens up great. I enjoy using it on my Z Cuts. It's a simple steel that does everything well for me. I was actually happy when these were announced in BD1N instead of S30V. To be honest I feel like the price is a bit steep for the materials though.

[vivi]

Just for completeness, here is the thread I made about this knife a few months ago: thread

The main thing it has that this thread doesn’t is some shots of the internals of the knife and my personal opinion that this knife should not have a choil.

Hey, does the back of your lock bar stick up this much with the knife assembled?



I got into the habit of buying 2 or 3 of every G10 Native Chief sprint and selling the ones with the least flush lock bars. I ran into that issue a lot. That and the uneven backspacer.