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Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:00 pm
by Hatuletoh
TazKristi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:52 pm
@Hatuletoh we view this as trademark infringement. Plain and simple.
Sal and Gail founded Spyderco nearly 50 years ago. Spyderco has worked very hard over decades to build our reputation (one that is, by and large, viewed in a very trusted, positive light). We take enormous pride in working for Spyderco and working for you, our customer.
When you see our logo on a product (even a product that
IS our logo), it instills a certain level of trust that what you're purchasing is made with quality and integrity. The Bug (our logo) was custom-designed; it was carefully crafted with thought and intention. It is a representation of our company.
When I look at anything that infringes on our legal trademark, I don't see integrity or quality. I see something intended to potentially fool our customers and hurt us. There is no grey area here. It's ours. They're stealing it. They're profiting off of decades of hard work, passion, commitment, and integrity.
You wanted an official opinion. Now you have it.
Kristi
Indeed, and I thank you for it. Into the river will go the unauthorized lanyard beads. If Spyderco were to sell some relatively small and lightweight lanyard beads, say, under one inch in length, I'd buy them all. How about Spyderco branded beads made from some of the tool steels to match the knife blades? I'd love to have a lanyard bead on my K390 Endela or Rex 45 PM2 or M4 Manix to compare and contrast the patina on the bead with the one on the blade. Or alternately, beads that matched scales, like blurple G10 and brown micarta for my S110V and Cruware models, respectively. And of course, titanium is always nice.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:52 pm
by riclaw
Hatuletoh wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:00 pm
If Spyderco were to sell some relatively small and lightweight lanyard beads, say, under one inch in length, I'd buy them all. How about Spyderco branded beads made from some of the tool steels to match the knife blades? I'd love to have a lanyard bead on my K390 Endela or Rex 45 PM2 or M4 Manix to compare and contrast the patina on the bead with the one on the blade.
That's a cool idea. Make use of otherwise scrap metal, like broken Oreo's go into icecream.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:54 pm
by Enactive
Spydiehole cutouts could become beads too.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:55 pm
by riclaw
Enactive wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:54 pm
Spydiehole cutouts could become beads too.
Ooh!
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:50 pm
by zhyla
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:50 am
It maybe isn’t ethical but probably that Lock cage also isn’t made with permission either.
Patent for the CBB lock expired. People are free to sell cages to their hearts’ contents.
I’m honestly baffled at this thread. OP is buying stuff from other companies with Spyderco’s logo, and then trying say Spyderco gets free advertising? Please.
Copying a knife design is one thing but the trademarks is quite another.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:59 pm
by Jimandchris2
If you think you need a haircut, do you need one?
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:12 pm
by Doc Dan
This is what happens with ethics and morality that are properly based are not taught in schools. When I was younger, this would not even be a discussion and it makes me sad that it is, now.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
by apollo
zhyla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:50 pm
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:50 am
It maybe isn’t ethical but probably that Lock cage also isn’t made with permission either.
Patent for the CBB lock expired. People are free to sell cages to their hearts’ contents.
I’m honestly baffled at this thread. OP is buying stuff from other companies with Spyderco’s logo, and then trying say Spyderco gets free advertising? Please.
Copying a knife design is one thing but the trademarks is quite another.
As far as i know a patent is for 20 years?
And since the cage was as far as i know first designed for the Manix 2 i would say how is that expired already? And if even so the metal cages have bin produced for atleast 5 to 10 years now so you are telling me spyderco patented them 25 to 30 years ago when i was 5 to 10 years old and years before the Manix 1 lockback was even ever released ? Something does not add up on that to me.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:55 pm
by Wartstein
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
zhyla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:50 pm
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:50 am
It maybe isn’t ethical but probably that Lock cage also isn’t made with permission either.
As far as i know a patent is for 20 years?
And since the cage was as far as i know first designed for the Manix 2 i would say how is that expired already? And if even so the metal cages have bin produced for atleast 5 to 10 years now so you are telling me spyderco patented them 25 to 30 years ago when i was 5 to 10 years old and years before the Manix 1 lockback was even ever released ? Something does not add up on that to me.
I don´t know anything about patents and how long they protect a product or an idea..
I am just pretty sure that the patent on the comp.lock has expired quite recently, and wasn´t the first compl.lock in the Paramilitary which was released in 2004 (?) and so developed probably 2003 already (so the actual patent comes from that time?)
This would speak for the "20 years" you are mentioning.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:04 am
by zhyla
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
As far as i know a patent is for 20 years?
And since the cage was as far as i know first designed for the Manix 2 i would say how is that expired already?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6751868B2/en
Issued 2002.
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
And if even so the metal cages have bin produced for atleast 5 to 10 years now so you are telling me spyderco patented them 25 to 30 years ago when i was 5 to 10 years old and years before the Manix 1 lockback was even ever released ? Something does not add up on that to me.
The Manix 2 came out in 2009. I don’t know why Spyderco took so long to productive the CBBL. It isn’t a trivial design to productize though. They even had to CQI the cages.
Aftermarket cages have been produced for years in violation of the patent. I don’t know if Spyderco ever enforced the patent — it seems smarter to let companies fill the need for aftermarket locks.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:07 am
by zhyla
Wartstein wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:55 pm
I don´t know anything about patents and how long they protect a product or an idea..
20 years from the patent being filed for USA patents.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:16 am
by Wartstein
zhyla wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:07 am
Wartstein wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:55 pm
I don´t know anything about patents and how long they protect a product or an idea..
20 years from the patent being filed for USA patents.
Thanks! That goes in line indeed with the quite recent expiring of the comp.lock patent (first comp.lock knife in 2004 (I think), and the actual patent might be a bit "older").
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:15 am
by apollo
zhyla wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:04 am
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
As far as i know a patent is for 20 years?
And since the cage was as far as i know first designed for the Manix 2 i would say how is that expired already?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6751868B2/en
Issued 2002.
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
And if even so the metal cages have bin produced for atleast 5 to 10 years now so you are telling me spyderco patented them 25 to 30 years ago when i was 5 to 10 years old and years before the Manix 1 lockback was even ever released ? Something does not add up on that to me.
The Manix 2 came out in 2009. I don’t know why Spyderco took so long to productive the CBBL. It isn’t a trivial design to productize though. They even had to CQI the cages.
Aftermarket cages have been produced for years in violation of the patent. I don’t know if Spyderco ever enforced the patent — it seems smarter to let companies fill the need for aftermarket locks.
I hope anyone who knows can make it more clear about how long US patents last ?
Because my research all says 20 years so if the patent already expired it should have as far as i can see bin legalized before 2004 and i find that hard to believe since the original C95 Backlock was just released in 2004. And the original c101 backlock was not even released until 2005.
So i really do not think the Cbbl was even on a piece of paper back then let alone far enough to ask for a patent.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:36 am
by Matus
Those 20 years are maximum. If the entity that owns the patent decides, that it is not worth paying the (over time considerably growing!) fees for the given patent anymore, it may become available to others much sooner.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:47 am
by apollo
Matus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:36 am
Those 20 years are maximum. If the entity that owns the patent decides, that it is not worth paying the (over time considerably growing!) fees for the given patent anymore, it may become available to others much sooner.
Thx for the info that makes the situation much clearer! I still would find it strange for Spyderco to give up sooner then the 20years especially for a lock so specialized as the CBBL. But that is not our business then offcourse.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:39 am
by Albertaboyscott
I think it's very simple. Don't buy it unless you know it's a spyderco product.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:50 am
by Michael Janich
Dar JimandChris2:
Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.
Stay safe,
Mike
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:13 am
by yablanowitz
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm
zhyla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:50 pm
apollo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:50 am
It maybe isn’t ethical but probably that Lock cage also isn’t made with permission either.
Patent for the CBB lock expired. People are free to sell cages to their hearts’ contents.
I’m honestly baffled at this thread. OP is buying stuff from other companies with Spyderco’s logo, and then trying say Spyderco gets free advertising? Please.
Copying a knife design is one thing but the trademarks is quite another.
As far as i know a patent is for 20 years?
And since the cage was as far as i know first designed for the Manix 2 i would say how is that expired already? And if even so the metal cages have bin produced for atleast 5 to 10 years now so you are telling me spyderco patented them 25 to 30 years ago when i was 5 to 10 years old and years before the Manix 1 lockback was even ever released ? Something does not add up on that to me.
The Caged Ball Bearing lock was developed for the P'kal, introduced in 2007. If I remember right, it spent two or three years in developement, so the patent probably expired this year. I doubt the patent would have prevented people from producing aftermarket parts from different materials, even if Sal didn't accept such things as part of the game. After all, they weren't making whole knives or even whole locks.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:34 am
by Accutron
Wartstein wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:16 am
Thanks! That goes in line indeed with the quite recent expiring of the comp.lock patent (first comp.lock knife in 2004 (I think), and the actual patent might be a bit "older").
The first model with a compression lock was the Gunting (2000). The provisional patent application was filed in February 2000, and the final patent (US6553672) was issued 2003-04-29.
Re: Ethical question
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:43 am
by Wartstein
Accutron wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:34 am
The first model with a compression lock was the Gunting (2000). The provisional patent application was filed in February 2000, and the final patent (US6553672) was issued 2003-04-29.
Thanks, good Info!
Did totally not know this
... figured the Paramilitary ("1") was the first comp.lock Spydie...
... figured the Paramilitary ("1") was the first comp.lock Spydie...