2 Swedish Air Force survival knives

[shunsui]

Great post.

It would be interesting to know if a bit of silver would improve today's steels. I bet a steel/silver bullet would work wonders on werewolves.

[aicolainen]

Great work and interesting background information. Thanks for sharing!
I live only an hour’s drive from the Swedish border, so the “local” connection made it even more interesting.

[Rusty_Shackelford]

Absolutely incredible work. It’s awesome seeing you bring them back to life!

[kwakster]

Pictured are two Norwegian Foss 7205 combination black/green SiC sharpening stones; the one used with WD40 oil for regrinding the two Pontus Holmberg knives, and an unused new old stock one i intend to use with water.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

You don't know how happy I am that you posted these. I am a lover of Swedish and Scandinavian knives. I have heard legends of survival stories with thia model you posted. That website you mentioned is great. I think it was posted by a father in memoriam of his son who was a Swedish military soldier. Thank you!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Great work and interesting background information. Thanks for sharing!
I live only an hour’s drive from the Swedish border, so the “local” connection made it even more interesting.

This is amazing. If you can can you please share some photos with us in this section of Sweden and Swedish and other Scandi knives? I love those.

[aicolainen]

Great work and interesting background information. Thanks for sharing!
I live only an hour’s drive from the Swedish border, so the “local” connection made it even more interesting.

This is amazing. If you can can you please share some photos with us in this section of Sweden and Swedish and other Scandi knives? I love those.

Hi SEF, I’m sadly lacking in knowledge with regards to local knife history. Especially the Swedish, which although close and I’ve been there a million times, is still a different country. That said, I didn’t even know about the Foss sharpening stones, which actually are from my country, so there’s that .
It’s stories like the one @kwakster has presented here, that make me realize there is more to the Scandinavian knife history than I was aware of and that inspires me to learn more.

[Naperville]

"Maybe Larrin can tell us more about the validity of Faraday's claims about steel alloyed with silver, and maybe his thoughts about the type of steel in these two Swedish knives."

@Larrin what do you think?

To me, silver seems pretty soft but maybe there is something you know that I don't.

[Ankerson]

At this point i'm quite certain that the steel in these 2 knives is an entirely different type when compared to the standard Sheffield made crucible cast steel.
One reason is that Pontus Holmberg classifies it as a stainless steel, where the Sheffield made crucible cast steel was a carbon steel.
See this detail picture of the sheath of knife #2, and "Rostfri" is the Swedish word for stainless.

https://ibb.co/bzfSNhV

The second reason is the very high wear resistance of this Swedish steel: using whatever grit of black silicon carbide on it is extremely slow, be it waterproof SiC paper or the coarse black SiC side of the Foss 7205 combination stone.
The green silicon carbide side of that stone however, even though much finer than the black side, cuts the steel noticeably faster, better, and also with great feedback.
Based on this i'm beginning to suspect there might be quite a lot of tungsten carbides in it, also because the steel is able to take & hold a thin ~20 degree inclusive edge angle while whittling an old piece of hard beechwood cutting board (tested with knife #1)

A possible third reason is a little piece of info i found on this website with mining data: https://www.mindat.org/loc-3153.html
According to this there could be (traces of) silver in the Dannemora iron ore, which made me remember what Faraday wrote about the alloy of steel with silver in this thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/phi ... t-20358902
Problems might be that Faraday wrote about his findings around 1822, he doesn't talk about silver in ore but about lab made alloys, and i'm no metallurgist.

Maybe Larrin can tell us more about the validity of Faraday's claims about steel alloyed with silver, and maybe his thoughts about the type of steel in these two Swedish knives.

Likely some configuration of 440/C tempered to a higher hardness.

Wasn't a lot of choices back then in stainless steels for knife blades.

440C can be VERY hard to sharpen which is why BUCK stopped using it, they got a ton of complaints that people couldn't sharpen it.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I wish the Swedes would make a modern update of these knives using molded FRN grips. Why don't they do that and why doesn't Mora make locking blade folders?

[kwakster]

I don't think this steel is 440C like in the old school Buck knives, as i have hand reground quite a few of these on simple wet & dry SiC paper, which is of course black silicon carbide.
On the old Swedish steel the coarse side of the Foss 7205 stone (black silicon carbide) is extremely slow/nearly useless for regrinding, while the various grits of finer wet & dry SiC paper are basically only useful for later refining steps.
The green silicon carbide is noticeably harder than black silicon carbide, and it cuts the Swedish steel much better & faster (even while it has a much finer grit)
Also: imo 440C steel isn't well suited for ~20 degrees inclusive edge angles, probably due to the relatively large chromium carbides, while the Swedish steel does very well with such low edge angles.

[Larrin]

The steel would not be anything exciting. If it's stainless it would be 420 or 440A. If it's carbon steel it would be a 1095 or W1. Claiming it is some special high wear resistance steel is wishful thinking.

Silver doesn't improve steel, Faraday was wrong.

[Ankerson]

The steel would not be anything exciting. If it's stainless it would be 420 or 440A. If it's carbon steel it would be a 1095 or W1. Claiming it is some special high wear resistance steel is wishful thinking.

Silver doesn't improve steel, Faraday was wrong.

Like I said not a lot of choices back then.

[kwakster]

That silver does not play a role in this steel might very well be true, after all it was just something i read about in Faraday's work on alloys and in the mining data that stated there might be traces of it in the iron ore.

However, my experience with hand regrinding/sharpening/deburring and using it tells me that this vintage Swedish stainless steel is an entirely different animal compared to modern 440A, 440B, and even 440C stainless steel.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The steel would not be anything exciting. If it's stainless it would be 420 or 440A. If it's carbon steel it would be a 1095 or W1. Claiming it is some special high wear resistance steel is wishful thinking.

Silver doesn't improve steel, Faraday was wrong.

Actually, sir, I must correct you on this fair point. First of all I have great respect and admiration for your fine metallurgical knowhow and hands on experience. Sir Michael Faraday never made definite statements that silver improved the properties of steel. He only carried out experiments with silver, chromium, and other atoms being added to the iron carbon matrix. It was not a conclusive statement he made. Thank you.

[Ankerson]

That silver does not play a role in this steel might very well be true, after all it was just something i read about in Faraday's work on alloys and in the mining data that stated there might be traces of it in the iron ore.

However, my experience with hand regrinding/sharpening/deburring and using it tells me that this vintage Swedish stainless steel is an entirely different animal compared to modern 440A, 440B, and even 440C stainless steel.

Depends on how it's heat treated, I have seen some 154CM and 440C that is a bear to sharpen even with modern day stones.

[Larrin]

Actually, sir, I must correct you on this fair point. First of all I have great respect and admiration for your fine metallurgical knowhow and hands on experience. Sir Michael Faraday never made definite statements that silver improved the properties of steel. He only carried out experiments with silver, chromium, and other atoms being added to the iron carbon matrix. It was not a conclusive statement he made. Thank you.

Please do a basic check of your information before correcting someone. People may read your post and believe your information to be accurate and thus be misled.

"This alloy is decidedly superior to the very best steel, and this excellence is unquestionably owing to combination with a minute portion of Silver. It has been repeatedly, made, and always with equal success. Various cutting tools have been made from it of the best quality."
"From the facility of obtaining silver, it is probable that its alloy with steel is the most valuable of those we have made. To enumerate its applications, would be to name almost every edge-tool."
- Stodart and Faraday
https://scholar.archive.org/work/npcabr ... 652361.pdf

[Ankerson]

The steel would not be anything exciting. If it's stainless it would be 420 or 440A. If it's carbon steel it would be a 1095 or W1. Claiming it is some special high wear resistance steel is wishful thinking.

Silver doesn't improve steel, Faraday was wrong.

Larrin,

Quick question.

Any idea of the steel Randall Knives actually uses for the stainless blades?

I have heard 440B and 440B like, but never a straight answer and Randall has never actually said for sure as far as I know.


Jim

[kwakster]

Depends on how it's heat treated, I have seen some 154CM and 440C that is a bear to sharpen even with modern day stones.

I have experience with Buck's old 440C steel (so far i've never hand reground 154CM), but while indeed hard to hand regrind & sharpen, it can be done well on good quality black SiC, be it stones or SiC paper on glass.

That same good quality black SiC however does only very little and very slow to this Swedish stainless steel (even the coarse grits), while the harder yet much finer green SiC eats the steel just fine.
The difference might be tungsten carbides instead of chromium carbides (and a lot of them), but absolute proof about this i don't have yet.
Maybe i need to find someone with an XRF scanner.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Actually, sir, I must correct you on this fair point. First of all I have great respect and admiration for your fine metallurgical knowhow and hands on experience. Sir Michael Faraday never made definite statements that silver improved the properties of steel. He only carried out experiments with silver, chromium, and other atoms being added to the iron carbon matrix. It was not a conclusive statement he made. Thank you.

Please do a basic check of your information before correcting someone. People may read your post and believe your information to be accurate and thus be misled.

"This alloy is decidedly superior to the very best steel, and this excellence is unquestionably owing to combination with a minute portion of Silver. It has been repeatedly, made, and always with equal success. Various cutting tools have been made from it of the best quality."
"From the facility of obtaining silver, it is probable that its alloy with steel is the most valuable of those we have made. To enumerate its applications, would be to name almost every edge-tool."
- Stodart and Faraday
https://scholar.archive.org/work/npcabr ... 652361.pdf

According to the electroplating industry silver plating of steel does improve the steel. It is not as good as the better alloys we have today and the effect lasts as long as the plating holds up. But back then they did not have alot to work with. From a silver plating website: "Summary. The use of silver plating on stainless steel and other corrosion resistant alloys including Inconel®, Nitronic® and Hastelloy® offers many surface engineering benefits. Silver plating imparts outstanding lubricity, anti-galling and corrosion resistance benefits even at high temperatures and heavy loads."