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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:12 pm
by TomAiello
yablanowitz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:54 am
2) What is the IRS going to say about all that money being collected and banked for a couple of years? Do you really believe they would collect enough in interest to cover the tax burden it would create?
If Spyderco purchased the material in the same fiscal year as the pre-payment orders, it would create some offsetting expense. And once the system was rolling, the labor expense of the current year mule production could be used to offset the pre-payment income.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:00 pm
by notfixingit
yablanowitz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:54 am
A couple of things to consider on the long-term prepay.
1) How is Sal supposed to set a price for a Mule before the steel is purchased and shipped, machining costs are known, and heat treatment requirements have been worked out?
2) What is the IRS going to say about all that money being collected and banked for a couple of years? Do you really believe they would collect enough in interest to cover the tax burden it would create?
As JRinFL said, "No good deed goes unpunished".
#1 could just do a preorder fee, like half of what is expected or something.
Not sure #2 is correct? The prepay would be reported as income for the year it was received, however the expense of material would not be (maybe). Either way though the cost would eventually be subtracted and reduce tax liability, just probably not in the same year. Either way, at 500-1000 knives per run, it's not a ton of $.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:19 am
by Gtscotty
I don't like the idea of a Mule Subscription, it seems to me the mules are out there for folks who want to try a steel on a standard platform, not only for the "gotta catch em all" crowd. For example, I got a MT28, MT29 and MT31, now I'm good for a while until another steel that I'm specifically interested in comes out, so demand is going to decrease a bit for say the Z-Wear mule. I think the approach that Spyderco seems to be taking of increasing volume is the right way, the bump from a few years of pent up demand, and pandemic cabin fever buying should smooth out soon. If they wanted to take another step, the easiest would just be to increase the price, at least on the high end steels. $50 is fine for a run of the mill steel, but what steel enthusiasts wouldn't have paid $75 or $80, at least, for a Z-Max blade. Again, I think increasing volume will work fine, but if Spyderco wants to take another step, it makes more sense to float the price up and let the supply and demand curves do their thing, than to make a club or subscription that requires extra labor on their end.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:58 am
by notfixingit
Gtscotty wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:19 am
I don't like the idea of a Mule Subscription, it seems to me the mules are out there for folks who want to try a steel on a standard platform, not only for the "gotta catch em all" crowd. For example, I got a MT28, MT29 and MT31, now I'm good for a while until another steel that I'm specifically interested in comes out, so demand is going to decrease a bit for say the Z-Wear mule. I think the approach that Spyderco seems to be taking of increasing volume is the right way, the bump from a few years of pent up demand, and pandemic cabin fever buying should smooth out soon. If they wanted to take another step, the easiest would just be to increase the price, at least on the high end steels. $50 is fine for a run of the mill steel, but what steel enthusiasts wouldn't have paid $75 or $80, at least, for a Z-Max blade. Again, I think increasing volume will work fine, but if Spyderco wants to take another step, it makes more sense to float the price up and let the supply and demand curves do their thing, than to make a club or subscription that requires extra labor on their end.
Yeah kind of the point of this was to float round ideas for something that doesn't require a bunch of extra labor but would allow everyone that wanted one to get it without having to shop them on eBay for 3x+ original cost
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:00 pm
by yablanowitz
Bolster wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:23 pm
Good point ^ Tom.
A long-leadtime pre-payment would reduce some of the guesswork and risk for Spyderco on how many mules to produce. And it would discourage scalpers who would not be inclined to wait months or a year to flip their Mule for an easy-sleazy profit.
Y'all realize that as Spyderco makes MORE mules, and getting them is easy, then human nature is to stop buying them because they're plentiful. It's happened before. So "more mules" is not necessarily the only answer to the problem, as it would likely reduce interest in Muleism to some degree. As you all know, it's already happened. Recent history, some Mules languished without sales, leading to the previous termination of the Mule program.
I bet money-in-hand a year before the mule is produced, would compensate for additional bookkeeping. 600 mules x $75 each = $45,000. What's the interest on $45K over a year? Should yield at least $3K in interest; you can buy someone to keep a list for a fraction of that amount. Alternately, it could pay for the steel they're buying up front, as Tom pointed out; they'd not need to wait until mules sold to recoup their investment.
Neither would you have to sell ALL mules pre-payment. For those that really really want a mule, they'd prepay. Everyone else could take their chances on sale day. That might satisfy both true-blue die-hards (like Yablanowitz!) and scalpers alike.
Since it's likely the die-hards who are buying the scalper-flipper Mules at 400% prices (I have had to resist the temptation to buy at scalper prices myself), such a method should serve to reduce the crazy markup prices, since the true-blue-spyderco-bug-tattoo folks would have already locked in their Mule purchases ahead of time.
It's a reasonable proposal, Sal! Please give it some consideration. Mules to those who love them; not to scalpers who flip them...!
Just for the record, I have never bought a Mule from the flippers. All have been purchased direct. On the rare occassions when there was a limit of one in the past, the supply has lasted long enough for the restriction to be lifted, allowing me to order another. The Z-Max is the first one that I haven't gotten two of, but there could be some at the Seconds Sale. If not, I just won't have two complete sets anymore.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:45 pm
by Bolster
If Yab doesn't have two complete sets, that must also require a fundamental revision of the rules that govern the universe. Will someone please give Yab a second Z-Max so we can continue to enjoy light, gravity, time, and other fundamentals we take for granted? I would give him mine, but my Z-Max order did not go through, and I'm Z-Maxless.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:09 am
by yablanowitz
I suspect Z-Max was about as easy to work as Maxamet, so there are most likely rejects waiting for the seconds sale. They may only be a nickel less than the firsts, but it will beat paying three or four times the original price on FleeceBay.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:57 pm
by Knivesofaspyder
yablanowitz wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:09 am
I suspect Z-Max was about as easy to work as Maxamet, so there are most likely rejects waiting for the seconds sale. They may only be a nickel less than the firsts, but it will beat paying three or four times the original price on FleeceBay.
Despite the Z-max's low price they are still selling for a hefty premium on sites that typically have mules for decently fair prices. One sold for $120 on Blade forums last night. I guess people believe the value of a fixed blade in Z-Max is much more than $50.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:07 am
by notfixingit
Knivesofaspyder wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:57 pm
yablanowitz wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:09 am
I suspect Z-Max was about as easy to work as Maxamet, so there are most likely rejects waiting for the seconds sale. They may only be a nickel less than the firsts, but it will beat paying three or four times the original price on FleeceBay.
Despite the Z-max's low price they are still selling for a hefty premium on sites that typically have mules for decently fair prices. One sold for $120 on Blade forums last night. I guess people believe the value of a fixed blade in Z-Max is much more than $50.
One on eBay over the weekend went for $187, I stopped bidding at $60
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:03 am
by sal
We think the higher quantities of Future Mule Teams will somewhat curtail that activity.
sal
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:18 am
by archangel
sal wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:03 am
We think the higher quantities of Future Mule Teams will somewhat curtail that activity.
sal
Can you tell us what quantity will be produced of the future Mule Teams? Such information is usually confidential, but then again the quantity of the past MTs was published here...
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:52 pm
by David R
Gtscotty wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:19 am
I don't like the idea of a Mule Subscription, it seems to me the mules are out there for folks who want to try a steel on a standard platform, not only for the "gotta catch em all" crowd. For example, I got a MT28, MT29 and MT31, now I'm good for a while until another steel that I'm specifically interested in comes out, so demand is going to decrease a bit for say the Z-Wear mule. I think the approach that Spyderco seems to be taking of increasing volume is the right way, the bump from a few years of pent up demand, and pandemic cabin fever buying should smooth out soon. If they wanted to take another step, the easiest would just be to increase the price, at least on the high end steels. $50 is fine for a run of the mill steel, but what steel enthusiasts wouldn't have paid $75 or $80, at least, for a Z-Max blade. Again, I think increasing volume will work fine, but if Spyderco wants to take another step, it makes more sense to float the price up and let the supply and demand curves do their thing, than to make a club or subscription that requires extra labor on their end.
Not sure about a subscription. I would be happy to pre-pay, or to give a non-refundable deposit. Of course that would cause headaches for Spydero from people who want their deposit back. It also violates Sal's keep it simple. Whatever Spyderco wants to do I'm fine with. I appreciate them continuing to make these. It's got to be a nuisance and it almost has to be taking up factory time from another product that would make them more money. I work for a manufacturing company. It's always a challenge when you have limited capacity and have to make products with lower profit margin. It's the same as giving away money.
I have all the mules except one (Damascus VG-10). I've probably bought 7 from Spyderco. The rest I had to get on the open market. So be it. I'm not a collector. I'm interesting in having the same blade geometry in different steels for edge retention testing and some other stuff I'm curious about. Most of them will eventually get sold. I'll keep a couple. I may thin my K390 mule to see how it performs. I hope the secondary market stays high enough that I can get my money back. :)
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:28 pm
by kodai78
I’d be very interested in signing up for such a program. If a fee was involved to hold your place and then you were billed when the Mule shipped with an option to decline if it were too expensive that should help all parties involved with their concerns.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:47 am
by sal
Hi Michael,
The current plan is to up the quantity to 1500 pcs per run and go from there.
sal
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:01 pm
by archangel
Thanks Sal.
It's almost impossible to say which quantity is right. I know that some MTs were available for months, maybe more than a year. Now suddenly with the revival of the project, they were gone in minutes. If the trend continues, 1500pcs won't last a full day.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:02 pm
by JRinFL
sal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:47 am
Hi Michael,
The current plan is to up the quantity to 1500 pcs per run and go from there.
sal
Thanks Sal. I know to keep this experiment alive cost have to be kept down. This seems to be the simplest and most cost effective way to solve the current issues.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:26 pm
by RamZar
sal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:47 am
Hi Michael,
The current plan is to up the quantity to 1500 pcs per run and go from there.
sal
Good news! A run of 1,500 pieces for MT is a lot better than 500-600 for the most recent runs. Will this higher quantity apply to the upcoming Z-Wear PM and CPM-MagnaCut Mule Teams?
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:55 pm
by sal
Hi Ramzar,
It will be for the Magnacut Mule Team run. I don't think it will be for the Z-wear.
sal
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:07 am
by JRinFL
sal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:55 pm
Hi Ramzar,
It will be for the Magnacut Mule Team run. I don't think it will be for the Z-wear.
sal
I fear the 1500 for the MagnaCut will be insufficient as it will bring lots of people who are not normally Spyderco fans to the party. That's OK though since I know production models are in the works so I can wait if need be.
Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:59 am
by archangel
JRinFL wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:07 am
sal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:55 pm
Hi Ramzar,
It will be for the Magnacut Mule Team run. I don't think it will be for the Z-wear.
sal
I fear the 1500 for the MagnaCut will be insufficient as it will bring lots of people who are not normally Spyderco fans to the party. That's OK though since I know production models are in the works so I can wait if need be.
All true. Would still be great to be able to grab a MC MT...
