Baby got BACK(lock)

[kobold]

I would like to focus on the compression lock for a minute..

I managed to drop a closed compression lock folder (PM2) a few times and it opened as a result.

A compression lock is easy to shake open, so a shock introduced by a fall will open it, no problem. I tested the Para 3, the PM2, the Caribbean and the Sage.

OTOH, no matter how much wrist action I put into it, the Native can't be shaken open. The blade starts its travel, but the spring is plenty strong to move it back to its fully closed position immediately.

While closing the blade with a compression lock it is also unfortunately easy to drop the knife and that can be very dangerous. Major arteries in the thighs, damage to property etc.

In my case, this can happen especially with Taichung made Sage 5 for they keep the blade stuck in the open position. No matter how much strength I put in my pinch in an attempt to close the blade, it just stays open, while I'm desperately and repeatedly trying to flick it close. Simultaneously frustrating and dangerous. Not a way to operate a knife.


Another problem with the compression lock is the protruding tip of the finger choil as the Shaman is known for. I don't own a Shaman, but it is also a problem with the PM2. More often than not, the PM2 will fail to close after the choil bounces off of the tips of my index or middle fingers.

Here I am exposing the blade of my PM2 only by engaging the compression lock:



What is dangerous here is that there is no way to tell if the blade is seated properly or if it is still open, but to look at it, which is often impractical or impossible..

This is not an inherent issue with the compression lock itself, because this problem is not present on some models, like the Caribbean, the Sage 5 or the Para 3, but still, it shows that it can pop up with this type of lock in some sub-optimal designs.

Finally, I rate the compression lock as the least desirable in terms of ergonomics. It will create a hot spot in the hand web - a very delicate area.

TL;DR: the back-lock is way above the compression lock.

[cabfrank]

But...I love the compression lock. It is my favorite, even though I currently have only one.

[Wartstein]

i like backlocks on my lightweight salts (pacific, native, and dragonfly), but i'm not a huge fan otherwise. i much prefer the triad lock used by cold steel. none of my cold steel knives budge when open and all of my spyderco backlocks have at least a little wiggle. it's fine and they're plenty strong, but i prefer a more solid lockup.
i do love the cbbl on my manix also, but my favorite lock is the compression lock. i love the innovation behind it and how secure it is.
i understand why people prioritize a strong "detent" and the close bias, but neither is really important to me. i prefer smooth action, stronger lockup while actually open (when a knife is most dangerous), and i like the safety of being able to open and close the knife one handed without my fingers in the path of the blade. it's also more fun to play with, which is important to some people (although i have no problem fidgeting with my backlocks).
whatever your preference, i just love that spyderco offers such variety and that they didn't get stuck just offering the same old design just because it worked for them, but also continued to innovate completely new locks that are also great.

Though I much prefer the backlock, I too appreciate the "innovation behind" and the ingenious design of the comp. lock.

Two points though where I may disagree:

- As far as I know the backlock has an even stronger "lockup while actually open" than the comp. lock - I also can recall Eric mentioning, that on really large folders he likes the backlock exactly because it is so strong (practically I don´t think this matters though, both locks are multiple times stronger than ever really necessary for a folder I guess)

- A backlock can also be closed one handed without fingers in the path of the blade. I think this method is not common with backlocks (differently to comp.locks), perhaps because a backlock on the flipside is much safer to close WITH the fingers in the bladepath (several perfectly safe ways to do so) than a comp.lock . Also, admittedly, closing a backlock with fingers never in the bladepath takes a bit more getting used to.

[ladybug93]

i like backlocks on my lightweight salts (pacific, native, and dragonfly), but i'm not a huge fan otherwise. i much prefer the triad lock used by cold steel. none of my cold steel knives budge when open and all of my spyderco backlocks have at least a little wiggle. it's fine and they're plenty strong, but i prefer a more solid lockup.
i do love the cbbl on my manix also, but my favorite lock is the compression lock. i love the innovation behind it and how secure it is.
i understand why people prioritize a strong "detent" and the close bias, but neither is really important to me. i prefer smooth action, stronger lockup while actually open (when a knife is most dangerous), and i like the safety of being able to open and close the knife one handed without my fingers in the path of the blade. it's also more fun to play with, which is important to some people (although i have no problem fidgeting with my backlocks).
whatever your preference, i just love that spyderco offers such variety and that they didn't get stuck just offering the same old design just because it worked for them, but also continued to innovate completely new locks that are also great.

Though I much prefer the backlock, I too appreciate the "innovation behind" and the ingenious design of the comp. lock.

Two points though where I may disagree:

- As far as I know the backlock has an even stronger "lockup while actually open" than the comp. lock - I also can recall Eric mentioning, that on really large folders he likes the backlock exactly because it is so strong (practically I don´t think this matters though, both locks are multiple times stronger than ever really necessary for a folder I guess)

- A backlock can also be closed one handed without fingers in the path of the blade. I think this method is not common with backlocks (differently to comp.locks), perhaps because a backlock on the flipside is much safer to close WITH the fingers in the bladepath (several perfectly safe ways to do so) than a comp.lock . Also, admittedly, closing a backlock with fingers never in the bladepath takes a bit more getting used to.

when i say stronger lockup, i don't necessarily mean that it's less likely to fail. i mean there is no wiggle whatsoever in the lockup. a backlock tends to be mushy when open with the blade moving against the lock bar, which is moving against the spring. this movement is not present in my comp lock or cbbl knives. in other words, i'm not claiming the lock itself is stronger, but rather that the lockup feels more sturdy in heavy use. and, like you said, none of this really matters because they're all perfectly fine in real use.

[Menipo]

My ranking: 1 compression, 2 liner/frame, 3 ball bearing, 4 lockback

Strength (which one is stronger) is not a parameter that I take into account because I tend to believe that all of them endure ten times the force anyone (or at least I) uses before failing. Anyone (or at least I) will never put the hundreds of pounds which are used in all the comparative tests I have seen on Youtube to break the locks.

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

Ball bearing is 3rd because the knives with that lock are more difficult to disassemble to clean them.

So in the final round to choose number 1, compression wins because of the same reason: with a liner/frame, my thumb must be (just a second but it must be) in the path though, unlike in the case of lockbacks, there is no spring which could precipitate an (undesired) closing. So liner es 2nd and lockback 4th.

[Sumdumguy]

Backlock and Compression are my top two(I'd say tied)

The only lock that is a real deal breaker for me is the C/BBL. It's what ruined the Manix for me and for that reason alone(aside from it being all around terrible), I have resigned it to the "never" pile.

Even on the Dodo, which I love. I lost my desire for, because the lock just doesn't work for me.

As for safety, that used to be a concern. However, over the years I have come to the conclusion that NONE of them are safe. A razor sharp blade that moves is inherently unsafe. It is the user's actions that determine how safe it is at any given moment.

If you cut yourself with a knife, hopefully you will learn what not to do next time.
(i.e. not jamming your hand blindly into a pocket containing said razor sharp blade[closed or not])

:D

[Wartstein]

.......

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

.......

Actually I know only ONE technique of closing a backlock with the fingers never in the blade path - but that one is really natural imho, one presses the lockbar just with the index finger (instead of the thumb), like one would press the locktab of the comp.lock with the index finger.
But you are certainly right: If one wants the locktype that can keep the fingers all the way out of the blade path AND is the easiest to operate that way right from the beginning: Comp.lock and CBBL are the better choices over backlock! :)

[vivi]

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

https://streamable.com/2rzwf

#3 is pretty easy with my larger lockbacks. Might be tough with smaller knives that have lighter blades.

[Wartstein]

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

https://streamable.com/2rzwf

#3 is pretty easy with my larger lockbacks. Might be tough with smaller knives that have lighter blades.

It´s easy with the Stretch 1 (pretty small knife): https://streamable.com/j7fjd
Also with the Delica, but I don´t have a vid of that right now...

[James Y]

As for safety, that used to be a concern. However, over the years I have come to the conclusion that NONE of them are safe. A razor sharp blade that moves is inherently unsafe. It is the user's actions that determine how safe it is at any given moment.

I agree with this. I used slipjoints for many years as my sole EDC knives; at one point, a single SAK Spartan was my only knife for over 10 years. I never had a slipjoint close on me during use, and I used them plenty.

OTOH, a knife that did close on my finger (user error on my part) was a Triad Lock (arguably the “strongest” folding blade lock in terms of sheer brute strength), when I stupidly attempted to one-hand close it.

Blade locks are basically ‘additional safeties’ to proper care taken during knife use. They’re not meant to be idiot-proof or fixed-blade solid, nor can they ever be, no matter how strong. Someone once said that “All folding knives are fixed blades that come pre-broken from the factory.”

Jim

[ladybug93]

OTOH, a knife that did close on my finger (user error on my part) was a Triad Lock (arguably the “strongest” folding blade lock in terms of sheer brute strength), when I stupidly attempted to one-hand close it.

Jim

yeah. the triad lock is no joke. those knives (especially the larger models) close like a guillotine. i have two xl models that have cut friends who know how to handle knives and that was even after i warned them to be extra careful. i never close a triad lock one handed unless it's one of the models that has a choil.

[vivi]

Here's how I one hand close my Voyagers. https://streamable.com/1lc8sw

[knife__bro69]

i like backlocks on my lightweight salts (pacific, native, and dragonfly), but i'm not a huge fan otherwise. i much prefer the triad lock used by cold steel. none of my cold steel knives budge when open and all of my spyderco backlocks have at least a little wiggle. it's fine and they're plenty strong, but i prefer a more solid lockup.
i do love the cbbl on my manix also, but my favorite lock is the compression lock. i love the innovation behind it and how secure it is.
i understand why people prioritize a strong "detent" and the close bias, but neither is really important to me. i prefer smooth action, stronger lockup while actually open (when a knife is most dangerous), and i like the safety of being able to open and close the knife one handed without my fingers in the path of the blade. it's also more fun to play with, which is important to some people (although i have no problem fidgeting with my backlocks).
whatever your preference, i just love that spyderco offers such variety and that they didn't get stuck just offering the same old design just because it worked for them, but also continued to innovate completely new locks that are also great.

I agree that I like the triad lock better than a backlock, the triad lock is almost a straight upgrade to a backlock in everyway. It seems to be under Cold Steel’s property or something like that however.

It would be awesome if Cold Steel and Spyderco teamed up together to make a Triad Lock knife. To add to the meme,

LC200N FRN Salt Slysz Bowie with Triad Lock? Yes please.

[Menipo]

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

https://streamable.com/2rzwf

#3 is pretty easy with my larger lockbacks. Might be tough with smaller knives that have lighter blades.

Thanks, Vivi. #3 is the only way which keeps the fingers out of the blade path at all times. I learned that technique from one or your (or Wartstein's) videos in the other thread. From that moment I have tried it countless times with my Endura. Never could close it that way. My index finger seems to be too weak for the task ....

[Menipo]

.......

My main concern is safety: whether or not fingers have to be in the path of the blade to close it one hand. I can close all of my lockbacks one hand and my fingers (one way or the other, even for a second) have to be in the path. I know that there are "methods" to avoid it (Wartstein was kind enough to show me some videos of his method to do that in other thread) but it is an "artificial technique" :D to be learned and there is always the risk that one day one will be distracted and disaster will strike. So lockbacks are 4th for me.

.......

Actually I know only ONE technique of closing a backlock with the fingers never in the blade path - but that one is really natural imho, one presses the lockbar just with the index finger (instead of the thumb), like one would press the locktab of the comp.lock with the index finger.
But you are certainly right: If one wants the locktype that can keep the fingers all the way out of the blade path AND is the easiest to operate that way right from the beginning: Comp.lock and CBBL are the better choices over backlock! :)

It's clear that I don't have climber fingers ....

[Menipo]

Blade locks are basically ‘additional safeties’ to proper care taken during knife use. They’re not meant to be idiot-proof or fixed-blade solid, nor can they ever be, no matter how strong. Someone once said that “All folding knives are fixed blades that come pre-broken from the factory.”

Jim

I couldn't agree more ... but the better the additional safety is, the lower the risk to get damaged the idiot day everybody uses to have from time to time.

I use to close my lockbacks pressing the safety with my thumb and stopping the blade as it falls with my index finger (the area where the blade makes contact with the index finger is the choil or the non-sharped area at the end of the blade).

One day I was distracted and closed that way a knife that has a blade completely sharped (from the tip to the end) ...so the lockback didn't protect the idiot. A comp lock would have done it

[zhyla]

All locks have a bias to close.

Factually incorrect. Take any Walker linerlock, open it far enough to lift the detent ball out of its' hole and see if it springs shut. Same with a Reeve integral lock. Same with a standard Compression lock.

Sorry, I meant bias to stay closed, which isn’t what you seem to be looking for (the ability to re-close if slightly opened) But my statement stands, it takes a lot more force to overcome a flipper than non-flippers. I don’t think that matters much — in practice I think all lock types work fine if properly dialed in.

CBB remains my favorite.

[Wartstein]

I couldn't agree more ... but the better the additional safety is, the lower the risk to get damaged the idiot day everybody uses to have from time to time.

I use to close my lockbacks pressing the safety with my thumb and stopping the blade as it falls with my index finger (the area where the blade makes contact with the index finger is the choil or the non-sharped area at the end of the blade).

One day I was distracted and closed that way a knife that has a blade completely sharped (from the tip to the end) ...so the lockback didn't protect the idiot. A comp lock would have done it

Sorry to hear that the "fingers out of the bladepath all the time" method does not work for you with a backlock - it is certainly easier to do with a comp.lock, no doubt.

But perhaps one of the other methods Vivi and I showed could be for you?! Funny thing is: When I started using backlocks, I had no idea how other people close them one handed, and the only method that did NOT come to my mind naturally is exactly the one seemingly most people (including you) use: Dropping the choil/Ricasso on the forefinger...

THIS https://streamable.com/myzlt was the first way of closing I just naturally used, and it makes full use of the backlock (and CBBL) advantage, that the blade remains firmly in the half closed position: So no danger of dropping a sharpened part on the finger, even when distracted... plus: Differently to the main comp.lock method, the knife stays more secure in your hand all the time (which for me personally is of more importance than the "finger thing", especially outdoors in less than ideal conditions)

[Menipo]

Sorry to hear that the "fingers out of the bladepath all the time" method does not work for you with a backlock - it is certainly easier to do with a comp.lock, no doubt.

But perhaps one of the other methods Vivi and I showed could be for you?! Funny thing is: When I started using backlocks, I had no idea how other people close them one handed, and the only method that did NOT come to my mind naturally is exactly the one seemingly most people (including you) use: Dropping the choil/Ricasso on the forefinger...

THIS https://streamable.com/myzlt was the first way of closing I just naturally used, and it makes full use of the backlock (and CBBL) advantage, that the blade remains firmly in the half closed position: So no danger of dropping a sharpened part on the finger, even when distracted... plus: Differently to the main comp.lock method, the knife stays more secure in your hand all the time (which for me personally is of more importance than the "finger thing", especially outdoors in less than ideal conditions)

Thanks again, Wartstein. I use that method also from time to time. But I don't feel very safe with it. Just too much presure with the index finger (that makes the blade exceed the half closed position) and ... bingo! I am not speaking in theory. I experienced it many years ago with a Cold Steel El Hombre. Serrated, to be precise.

[vivi]

Sorry to hear that the "fingers out of the bladepath all the time" method does not work for you with a backlock - it is certainly easier to do with a comp.lock, no doubt.

But perhaps one of the other methods Vivi and I showed could be for you?! Funny thing is: When I started using backlocks, I had no idea how other people close them one handed, and the only method that did NOT come to my mind naturally is exactly the one seemingly most people (including you) use: Dropping the choil/Ricasso on the forefinger...

THIS https://streamable.com/myzlt was the first way of closing I just naturally used, and it makes full use of the backlock (and CBBL) advantage, that the blade remains firmly in the half closed position: So no danger of dropping a sharpened part on the finger, even when distracted... plus: Differently to the main comp.lock method, the knife stays more secure in your hand all the time (which for me personally is of more importance than the "finger thing", especially outdoors in less than ideal conditions)

Thanks again, Wartstein. I use that method also from time to time. But I don't feel very safe with it. Just too much presure with the index finger (that makes the blade exceed the half closed position) and ... bingo! I am not speaking in theory. I experienced it many years ago with a Cold Steel El Hombre. Serrated, to be precise.

I keep my lockback pivots tight enough that the blade won't swing shut. Makes my preferred closing method a little safer.