Spyderco Forums

Evil D wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:42 pm

I've beat the crap out of my Militaries without any failures. I usually don't pry doors off hinges or baton through car doors though so maybe my hard use is just not hard enough.

Hahaha, would this happen to be a jab at a former member? I feel I remember a pretty wild story involving this scenario a couple years ago.

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:52 pm

yeah, my concerns about liner locks have to do with the geometry - a thin, long, liner under lengthwise compression is much more vulnerable to buckling than a much shorter tab.

rangefinder wrote:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:04 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:32 am

I've never seen a spyderco liner lock fail in the locked position, but I prefer the related compression lock because of the superior physical arrangement.

May I ask: What do you mean by that?
Imho other than that "fingers never in the blade path" - thing (rather irrelevant for a bit experienced knife users in my opionion), a liner lock offers a more secure and natural grip of the knife while operation ((closing) compared to a comp.lock.

He may be referring to the fact that with a compression lock, the lock bar is held between the blade and the stop pin, so for the lock to fail the entire knife basically has to come apart. Unlike a liner lock, where the lock bar can just fold out of the way and the knife will close.

....

Thanks guys, now I get it! Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand "superior physical arrangement" correctly...

Up to this point in time ,touch wood ( my head hurts now🥴) I have not had a Spyderco knife liner lock fail.( ie not locking the blade in the open position during cutting operations, carried out in a realistic manner . Military , persistence etc , no name but a few. I enjoy my military and enjoy the liner lock , I dare say there are stronger locks , but I love the variation and have got most of the lock types Spyderco offers as I always say horses for courses, I will stop Preaching now all the best over and in

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand ...

Just so you know, your grammar is far better than most people over here, bro. :cool:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:52 pm

yeah, my concerns about liner locks have to do with the geometry - a thin, long, liner under lengthwise compression is much more vulnerable to buckling than a much shorter tab.

rangefinder wrote:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:04 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:32 am

I've never seen a spyderco liner lock fail in the locked position, but I prefer the related compression lock because of the superior physical arrangement.

May I ask: What do you mean by that?
Imho other than that "fingers never in the blade path" - thing (rather irrelevant for a bit experienced knife users in my opionion), a liner lock offers a more secure and natural grip of the knife while operation ((closing) compared to a comp.lock.

He may be referring to the fact that with a compression lock, the lock bar is held between the blade and the stop pin, so for the lock to fail the entire knife basically has to come apart. Unlike a liner lock, where the lock bar can just fold out of the way and the knife will close.

....

Thanks guys, now I get it! Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand "superior physical arrangement" correctly...

Warstein:

I agree with Jazz. Your grasp of the English language comes across as excellent. Far superior to many Americans who can ONLY speak English, who also wouldn’t understand “ superior physical arrangement.”

I still wonder if a compression lock could slip off the blade tang mating surface similar to a liner lock(.), if there is enough wear on it.

Jim

Heck, many Americans can’t communicate in any language.

The reason I generally avoid liner locks and framelocks is because they need to have a finger in the blade path to close, not because the are likely to fail. For a careful user a linerlock is safe to use, but accidents happen, and being bumped on the shoulder when closing a liner/frame lock can easily lead to cuts. Almost lost a finger once that way.

I definitely prefer a compression lock in any knife that might experience some cutting motions outside of slicing. I've had a few non-Spyderco liner locks loosen during some lateral forces from the way my grip shifted the liner.

That said, the Gayle Bradley folders are pretty impervious to stuff like that, so it's really in the design.

Is the liner lock listed as a hard use lock by Spyderco or do they have other locks for that role?

I was going to say the liner lock detent depends upon blade size but my Military detent was fine, whereas the 100 Pacer detent wasn’t nearly enough for me.

I don’t have a liner lock bigger than my Sage 1 now, but that is an all round excellent design.

Personally I feel Spyderco is one of the few companies that do liner locks well as a production company.

I have been on forums long enough to see mention of all locks fail and be complained about. Including the ones seen as the strongest currently on the market (the lock arm failed on the ‘back lock’).

Years ago a maker from Nee Zealand showed a modification to a liner and frame lock that would cause the lock not to fail. He has since stopped making knives due to personal reasons and removed his videos but custom maker Gavko still has one. Showed it to multiple makers at blade show and everyone agreed it would be the most reliable design. The downfall came in the market. You had to induce blade play. I have experimented with his design and it is the most reliable and the lock would fail catastrophically but would not close.

In order to make a safe reliable liner or frame lock takes a lot of measurements and good fitting of the lock face and sometimes there is a miss alignment that causes some issues.

Here is some thoughts I kept track off over the years. Some info has gone missing due to links being moved but gives an idea of what goes into making a safe liner or frame lock.

Liner locks- why?

Just the way the forces act on the liner/frame lock makes it inherently weaker than backlocks, CBBL, Axis, and Compression locks.

I believe it was Eric who made the comment concerning the Native Chief that the had to use a backlock to have the strength necessary for that big blade.

All emotional attachments aside, while all locks can fail, liner/frame locks fail more often and easier. Actual experience has taught me that. Also, lock strength tests continue to show the liner/frame locks are not as strong. The evidence is overwhelming.

I have a Military that will close with a lite tap on the spine. Just pressure on the spine and the liner will walk almost off the tang. I never used it much and never did any lock testing kind of abuse. I only use if for minor tasks around the house. I never carry it as I don't trust it.

In general i like liner locks probably because I grew up on them.

navin johnson wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:07 am

I have a Military that will close with a lite tap on the spine. Just pressure on the spine and the liner will walk almost off the tang. I never used it much and never did any lock testing kind of abuse. I only use if for minor tasks around the house. I never carry it as I don't trust it.

In general i like liner locks probably because I grew up on them.

If it's a warranty issue then you could probably have it fixed or replaced by Spyderco, if you'd feel like sending it in.

In terms of my personal favorite locks, my favorites are: back lock, CBBL, and compression lock. The CBBL and compression lock are probably interchangeable as to which I like more between the two.

Jim

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:14 pm

navin johnson wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:07 am

I have a Military that will close with a lite tap on the spine. Just pressure on the spine and the liner will walk almost off the tang. I never used it much and never did any lock testing kind of abuse. I only use if for minor tasks around the house. I never carry it as I don't trust it.

In general i like liner locks probably because I grew up on them.

If it's a warranty issue then you could probably have it fixed or replaced by Spyderco, if you'd feel like sending it in.

I sent it in two different times and was told it was unfixable due to CQI. No parts would fit it.

James Y wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:18 am

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:52 pm

rangefinder wrote:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:04 pm

Thanks guys, now I get it! Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand "superior physical arrangement" correctly...

Warstein:

I agree with Jazz. Your grasp of the English language comes across as excellent. Far superior to many Americans who can ONLY speak English, who also wouldn’t understand “ superior physical arrangement.”

Jazz wrote:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand ...

Just so you know, your grammar is far better than most people over here, bro. :cool:

Thanks guys for your kind words! :) But tbh, sometimes it´s just more or less luck if I find the correct English grammar or not when crafting a sentence.. :o

/ As for how I initially understood "superior physical arrangement" (more like "better arranged concerning operating the lock")
I really do think that this is where a liner lock trumps a comp.lock (just operating, not safety for the fingers or anything else): Imho one normally has the knife in a more natural, safer (concerning risk of dropping) and more similar to how to a knife is held in use anyway when operating a liner lock than it is the case with a comp.lock (not saying a comp.lock is "bad" in that regard though!!)

I will use a knife with a liner lock, provided the model has a proven track record. But even then, I won't use it for everything. For example, some liner locks can accidentally be released by the fat of my finger during use if I don't grip the handle a certain way. When this is the case, I'll use the knife for common everyday cutting tasks, but I won't use it for heavy cutting tasks which might cause the handle to shift in my hand.

I have experienced this with the Military. It's one of my favorite models, but I've learned that it's not the best knife for me to use on wood. When I'm in the woods, I usually wear a pair of gloves. I have found that when I'm carving wood, it's easy for the knife to shift in my hand. The result is that the fat of my gloved finger can make contact with the lock mechanism causing it to partially release. Thankfully, when this has happened, I have noticed it before the lock has fully released.

This is not the fault of the knife. It simply illustrates the point that I won't use some liner lock knives for heavier cutting tasks.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:45 am

James Y wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:18 am

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:52 pm

rangefinder wrote:

Thanks guys, now I get it! Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand "superior physical arrangement" correctly...

Warstein:

I agree with Jazz. Your grasp of the English language comes across as excellent. Far superior to many Americans who can ONLY speak English, who also wouldn’t understand “ superior physical arrangement.”

Jazz wrote:

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:39 am

Due to English not being my Native tongue I did not understand ...

Just so you know, your grammar is far better than most people over here, bro. :cool:

Thanks guys for your kind words! :) But tbh, sometimes it´s just more or less luck if I find the correct English grammar or not when crafting a sentence.. :o

/ As for how I initially understood "superior physical arrangement" (more like "better arranged concerning operating the lock")
I really do think that this is where a liner lock trumps a comp.lock (just operating, not safety for the fingers or anything else): Imho one normally has the knife in a more natural, safer (concerning risk of dropping) and more similar to how to a knife is held in use anyway when operating a liner lock than it is the case with a comp.lock (not saying a comp.lock is "bad" in that regard though!!)

When they first came out, I completely wrote off the comp. lock after handling a couple in a store. I'm not sure, but the model might have been the Vesuvius(??). Every time I opened it, my finger got 'pinched'. But after trying out the PM2, the Caribbean and the Para 3, the kinks of the design must have been worked out, because I never get pinched anymore.

Compared to liner locks, I actually prefer the comp. lock, for me, in terms of safe handling. I never unlock the comp. lock and swing it shut, but instead use my fingers to guide it closed. With practice, it's pretty quick, smooth and safe. Liner locks are easy, too, and I've never cut myself closing one, but for me, the comp. lock feels a little bit safer in operation.

Jim

The compression lock is superb but I still have a soft spot for the liner lock if it’s engineered correctly- as Spyderco always do.
The Military has been one of my favourite folders since it first appeared in the mid 90s and I have never had one come close to failing.
Liner locks are fine as long as they are made properly.