Choils on Spyderco Knives: Ups and Downs?

[VashHash]

I like it on some designs and I don't find it really gets in the way. Sharpening choils are more of a love hate thing for me. Usually a hate because those snag on things I'm trying to cut. On smaller knives the finger choils help but they also take away from an already short edge. On larger knives I don't mind because I usually have enough edge on them already its nice to have a choke up point. It does make a nice index stop when closing a lockback but sometimes that's a bad habit to get into.

[Eli Chaps]

I happened across a video today on the Native 5 and it reminded me of this thread and I wanted to revisit it.

First, in my original reply I said I'd prefer Spyderco got away from using the 50/50 choil. But that isn't really how I feel. What I truly mean is, I wish Spyderco would get away from grip dependent choils. I like the option of using the choil I just don't want the comfort of the grip dependent on it's use. As I said, I think the M2LW and even the Dfly 2 are very good examples of this.

Back to the video...In no way, shape or form am I ridiculing this YouTuber and I appreciate the video and the effort. But it stood out to me as a visual example of what I am meaning. Now, he doesn't intend it but it happens and he doesn't even realize what I see.

Before you read on, see if you notice what I noticed...

https://youtu.be/ZxnyWpM1SrM&t=535s




He does some cutting early on and then around 3min's in, he describes the grip and actually professes his fondness for the use of the choil. Stop the video right then and go back and re-watch the cutting and then finish the video.

At almost no time, when actually cutting, does he really use the choil. So the choil provides the more comfortable grip vs. not using it, but in practical application it isn't really an oft used feature.

So, by having one, you have options and that is great, I just don't think the comfort in hand should require it.

[Evil D]

I like the option of using the choil I just don't want the comfort of the grip dependent on it's use.

This is basically how I see it, with a couple exceptions. Smaller knives like the Dragonfly I just wouldn't see myself holding behind the choil. Same with the Caly 3, that knife (and all it's offspring) just feel amazing to me while on the choil. What I see are models that were clearly designed around using the choil as part of the main grip option (Native, Kiwi, Dragonfly, Caly 3) and then designs that have an optional choil that feel great being gripped behind the choil (Military, Manix 2/XL, Police 4).

I'm a lot more forgiving of the models that seem like they were designed to be used with the choil than I am of ones that seem to be the latter and are optional, but still feel wrong to me. My best example of this is the Para 2. It just doesn't feel right in either grip for me. When I choke up on it, it doesn't feel as "right" on the choil as a Caly 3, and behind the choil is too short for my hand. The Manix 2 is a bit more accommodating for me in this way. I get that a big part of that is just hand size so it's not the same for everyone.

[anycal]

I use the choil, regardless of size, only when cutting cardboard, or doing yard work. Cutting things suspended in air.

I don't use choil when cutting on cutting board, regardless of size. I can't, it gets in the way.

I don't dislike them, but too wish that some of my favorite models would have more cutting edge instead.

Makes me really want the Mantra now. Too bad I am 'knifelly' broke. I lost it this year...

[sal]

Interesting discussion, thanx for the input.

Some models like the D'fly need a finger choil for purchase. Some models like the Police 4, offer the option of using it to get close to the edge. Some models like the Lil' Temperance, I brought the edge close to the handle with a small guard to avoid slipping forward. Finger choils make good use of the space needed for lock-backs between the handle and the edge. (eg: the Caly models). I have a new "experimental model with a lock-back that brings the handle close to the edge. Knife design is all about balance and compromise if function is to be the primary focus.

sal

[Wanimator]

For this feature and among other reasons my 'grail' would be a Stretch 1 or 2 being given the HAP-40 Pakkawood treatment. The finger choil and a pinky catch with a curved edge just sell me with their function. Not that I have a problem with models like the Yojimbo-2 that's great.

[vivi]

When I carried small knives more frequently I used choils more often, because that was their primary grip. The UKPK and Caly 3 used to be my main users, and they're some of the best implementations of choils out there in my opinion.

These days I rely on larger knives like my old Police 3. I don't find myself using the finger choil on the Police, my Military or Manix XL hardly at all, because gripping behind the choil feels more comfortable on these knives. When I do use them it's not in a sabre grip, but rather when I'm putting my index finger along the spine of the blade for precision tip work:



These days I'm more inclined towards designs with no choil, or one integrated into the handle. Resilience, street beat, chinook 4, spin, ark etc.

Going back to the OP, my desire for every knife is that the cutting edge get as close as possible to my index finger while using the primary grip of the knife. So for the calypso 3, it does very well in this regard since it's "primary grip" is using the choil. The Military doesn't score as well, since its "primary grip" is behind the choil, and the cutting edge is about an inch away.

So that often presents me with a dilemma. Say I'm carving tent pegs with a Military. Do I grip it behind the choil for greater comfort at the expense of muscle fatigue, or do I grip it in the choil for increased leveraged and reduced ergonomics? Easier to grab a design like the Aqua Salt, where the primary grip has the cutting edge close to the handle.

The closer the edge to my index finger, the greater the leverage is, reducing fatigue. It's a metric I used to record with every knife I reviewed for my website.

When it comes to lockbacks and their need for a kick, it does make sense to use a choil on those designs. Or something I've thought about is design the handle in a way that the grip extends forward of the pivot, covering the kick, so the grip gets right up to the cutting edge for maximum leverage.

One last issue is thumb placement. I have long thumbs, and many popular knife designs do not work for me because of this. One unusual metric I consider with every knife is the distance between the index finger placement and the thumb ramp, if there is one.

Using my Police 3 as an example again, gripping behind the choil, there is about an inch betwen my index finger and tip of my thumb. Gripping the index choil, there is maybe 2mm of distance between my index finger and tip of thumb when using the thumb ramp.

On this particular model it's a non-issue since I can put my thumb on the spine of the blade while gripping the choil, but many knives I've run into don't work for me that way. They do not offer enough space between the thumb ramp and where my index finger grips, but trying to extend my thumb to the spine works poorly too. What this does is cramp my thumb up. If I look at the second joint back from the tip of my thumb while gripping the knife, a 40 degree angle is comfortable. A 55 degree or greater angle is uncomfortable.

About a decade ago I gave up on Ken Onion designs, because I noticed most of the ones I tried created too large of an angle in my thumb to be comfortable during use. The Delica presents the same issue for me, so I modded my Tasman Salt handle specifically so I could slide my hand back a touch and create more space for the thumb.

All that being said Spyderco style choils are not a deal breaker for me. I carry and enjoy many large knives with choils. I have a hunch I'd enjoy them more without the choils...but I could be wrong. Also, getting too close on folding designs, you run into the issue of lock failure being more likely to cut the user. Everything is a trade off.

Interesting discussion, thanx for the input.

Some models like the D'fly need a finger choil for purchase. Some models like the Police 4, offer the option of using it to get close to the edge. Some models like the Lil' Temperance, I brought the edge close to the handle with a small guard to avoid slipping forward. Finger choils make good use of the space needed for lock-backs between the handle and the edge. (eg: the Caly models). I have a new "experimental model with a lock-back that brings the handle close to the edge. Knife design is all about balance and compromise if function is to be the primary focus.

sal

I'm interested to see that model.

[Eli Chaps]

Interesting discussion, thanx for the input.

Some models like the D'fly need a finger choil for purchase. Some models like the Police 4, offer the option of using it to get close to the edge. Some models like the Lil' Temperance, I brought the edge close to the handle with a small guard to avoid slipping forward. Finger choils make good use of the space needed for lock-backs between the handle and the edge. (eg: the Caly models). I have a new "experimental model with a lock-back that brings the handle close to the edge. Knife design is all about balance and compromise if function is to be the primary focus.

sal

Well sir, thank you for providing a place where semi-thick headed folks like myself can criticize your creations and then you respond with grace and intrigue! :)

[speedkills]

I prefer a choil on all folders and prefer the 50/50 choil the best. Regardless of the lock folding knives can and will fold, that choil guarantees you will not loose an index finger!

[sal]

Hi Speedkills,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

I am a fan of the choil. FWIW I have a few Natives and I use the choil quite a bit. I don't think I'd like the knife as much if it didn't have one. I don't have any problems with the grip behind the choil either, I like being able to switch between them for different tasks. I wouldn't change a thing about it. Same with the dragonfly, it just wouldn't be the same to me without the 50/50 choil. So much more blade control when you can choke up past the pivot. Everyones hand size is a little different so your milage may vary.

I've have a rule that I adopted around the time that I made the switch to spyderco. I don't buy any knife that is capable of "bitting" my index finger by closing, accidental or otherwise. When I hold the handle in a normal grip and disengage the lock so the blade falls free... if the edge hits my finger, I won't own it. It's a safety issue plain and simple. Spydecos are too darn sharp to mess around with. You don't need a 50/50 choil to achieve this, but you do need a little space between the handle and the edge (like the yo2 and delica)

The Yojimbo 2
The Dragonfly(s)
The Native 5
The Para 3
The Delica 4
The PM 2
4 of my top 6 favorite spydies have 50/50 choils, not a coincidence

*I should also mention I don't usually have a problem "snagging" things with the choil and prefer the jimping over the smooth choil.

[ThePeacent]

like our fellow mate ZrowsN1s above I've never had snagging problems with choils, and my index finger has been saved from getting nicked many times because of them.
I like them!

this one below has nicked my finger 4 times in 4 years, I guess being a linerlock has something to do with that a well... :D

[speedkills]

Hi Speedkills,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

Thanks for having me!

[speedkills]

I am a fan of the choil. FWIW I have a few Natives and I use the choil quite a bit. I don't think I'd like the knife as much if it didn't have one. I don't have any problems with the grip behind the choil either, I like being able to switch between them for different tasks. I wouldn't change a thing about it. Same with the dragonfly, it just wouldn't be the same to me without the 50/50 choil. So much more blade control when you can choke up past the pivot. Everyones hand size is a little different so your milage may vary.

I've have a rule that I adopted around the time that I made the switch to spyderco. I don't buy any knife that is capable of "bitting" my index finger by closing, accidental or otherwise. When I hold the handle in a normal grip and disengage the lock so the blade falls free... if the edge hits my finger, I won't own it. It's a safety issue plain and simple. Spydecos are too darn sharp to mess around with. You don't need a 50/50 choil to achieve this, but you do need a little space between the handle and the edge (like the yo2 and delica)

The Yojimbo 2
The Dragonfly(s)
The Native 5
The Para 3
The Delica 4
The PM 2
4 of my top 6 favorite spydies have 50/50 choils, not a coincidence

*I should also mention I don't usually have a problem "snagging" things with the choil and prefer the jimping over the smooth choil.

I agree, I like the 50/50 choil the best but the Yojimbo works perfect as well with the unsharpened area behind the edge as a safety to not guillotine your index finger off. Same here, I won't buy a knife that will cut me if it closes, all the golden knives fit that criteria.

[ZrowsN1s]

.....
I agree, I like the 50/50 choil the best but the Yojimbo works perfect as well with the unsharpened area behind the edge as a safety to not guillotine your index finger off. Same here, I won't buy a knife that will cut me if it closes, all the golden knives fit that criteria.

like our fellow mate ZrowsN1s above I've never had snagging problems with choils, and my index finger has been saved from getting nicked many times because of them.
I like them!

this one below has nicked my finger 4 times in 4 years, I guess being a linerlock has something to do with that a well... :D

Glad to know I'm not the only one who fears only being able to give someone a high 4 instead of high 5. Peacent you've got the scars to prove it! I've seen the bloody pics :D

[sal]

Hi Vivi,

The model should be out next year. You'll know it when you see it.

sal

[Eli Chaps]

Hi Vivi,

The model should be out next year. You'll know it when you see it.

sal

Now that is exciting!

[speedkills]

I have a Question regarding this topic for Sal or anyone in the know. Was the 50/50 choil and the space behind the edge on the Yojimbo designed first and foremost as a safety and finger saver if the lock were to disengage during use. Or was it designed for the choked up grip and the safety benefit is just a great by product of the design? thanks in advance for any thought and input.

[sal]

Hi Speekills,

Michael Janich designed the Yojimbo's so I'll see if he can answer you.

sal

[Michael Janich]

I have a Question regarding this topic for Sal or anyone in the know. Was the 50/50 choil and the space behind the edge on the Yojimbo designed first and foremost as a safety and finger saver if the lock were to disengage during use. Or was it designed for the choked up grip and the safety benefit is just a great by product of the design? thanks in advance for any thought and input.

Dear Speedkills:

The area between the edge and handle of the Yo 2 was not intended as a 50/50 choil or a "finger saver." It aligns with the release tab of the Compression Lock when the blade is closed and keeps your fingertip from getting bitten by the edge when you close the knife quickly.

Stay safe,

Mike