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The only part I don't understand is why people seem to perceive a design as only being good enough for a value folder. It all boils down to that. For whatever reason there's an attitude that suggestions a value folder's design isn't on par with other designs, as if Sal and Eric sat down and said OK what are some designs that are good but not "$100 good". Do you really think they put less effort or thought into the value knives just because they're less expensive?

Larry the irony of your Lexus analogy is that's exactly what Lexus is, a hyped up higher end Toyota. Look at the ES 350, it's just a fancy Camry. Most of their models share the same platforms as standard Toyota models.

Evil D wrote: Larry the irony of your Lexus analogy is that's exactly what Lexus is, a hyped up higher end Toyota. Look at the ES 350, it's just a fancy Camry. Most of their models share the same platforms as standard Toyota models.

I know, that's why i thought that analogy more fitting :)

*And the reason many people would say "That's just a fancy value line folder*

I got you now Dave, and yes, I would agree. In fact, I think they are intentionally putting some top shelf designs (like the efficient) into that lineup in the interest of offering some of their best ideas in an affordable package.

Evil D wrote:The only part I don't understand is why people seem to perceive a design as only being good enough for a value folder. It all boils down to that. For whatever reason there's an attitude that suggestions a value folder's design isn't on par with other designs, as if Sal and Eric sat down and said OK what are some designs that are good but not "$100 good". Do you really think they put less effort or thought into the value knives just because they're less expensive?

Larry the irony of your Lexus analogy is that's exactly what Lexus is, a hyped up higher end Toyota. Look at the ES 350, it's just a fancy Camry. Most of their models share the same platforms as standard Toyota models.

You nailed it Sir !

Larry_Mott wrote:

Evil D wrote: Larry the irony of your Lexus analogy is that's exactly what Lexus is, a hyped up higher end Toyota. Look at the ES 350, it's just a fancy Camry. Most of their models share the same platforms as standard Toyota models.

I know, that's why i thought that analogy more fitting :)

*And the reason many people would say "That's just a fancy value line folder*

I'm sure lots of people would, and they're the same people who don't buy sprints because they're just fancy versions of standard production models.

Evil D wrote: I'm sure lots of people would, and they're the same people who don't buy sprints because they're just fancy versions of standard production models.

The difference in this case is that they won't be buying a pimped Corolla but a Lexus with Cf hood and tweaked as opposed to a standard Lexus..
Anyway, i give up now We each have our own take on the matter and i don't think we'll ever agree.
Fair play to you and your opinion! I just don't share it :)

Evil D wrote: I think you missed my point. If they make the Efficient in USA then it's no longer a Chinese model is it?

Yep, I totally misunderstood. Sorry guys. :) I didn't realize you meant that it would be made in the USA.
David, I like the value models as well. I just really love the USA made high end models. Peace brother.

Surfingringo wrote:

Evil D wrote:

David Lowry wrote:

Evil D wrote:

David Lowry wrote:I'm with gringo. I have no interest in an upgraded steel value model. I want the entire thing upgraded. I wouldn't want an M4 folder made in China. I want an M4 knife made in the USA.

But if it's the exact same design made with whatever materials you want and made in the USA...?

This is the big brain breaking hurdle people are dealing with in my Tenacious thread. I just don't understand it.

For the same reason I fly an American flag out front of my house. For the same reason that I will buy knives costing double or triple of what the ones in China cost if it is made in the USA. For the same reason I buy everything I can made in the USA. The fact that I can't get a USA made cell phone or TV doesn't change that. If I could buy everything made in the USA I would. We cannot get political on this forum or I would site the other reasons I don't care for them.

I don't want a Ford Escort with 400 HP. I wan't 400HP Corvette. For the record I would rather have a 1970's car with 450HP than anything made today with the same HP. It's what I grew up with. I didn't grow up with people having China made knives in their pocket. Old habits my man.

I think you missed my point. If they make the Efficient in USA then it's no longer a Chinese model is it?

Hey Dave, I didn't understand your post either. Not trying to fuel any kind of argument at all, just trying to understand what you're saying.

No worries Gringo. It was late and I misunderstood. Yeah I don't want to argue either. Not what I meant. :) I do like the Efficient for what it's worth.

The Raven 2 has American steel...... The design is fantastic....

David Lowry wrote: No worries Gringo. It was late and I misunderstood. Yeah I don't want to argue either. Not what I meant. :) I do like the Efficient for what it's worth.

Hah, its all good. I forgot there were two "Davids" in that discussion. I was actually responding to the Evil one. hehe. Ok, y'all carry on. I'm off to get a carbon fiber hood and louvers installed on my Fiero. ;p

elena86 wrote:My intention was not to fuel such a debate.I just realized that Efficient is a nice design with a big potential for upgrade.If you ask me, they should have decided to implement such a nice design in a premium folder(Taichung made even) from day one.

Marius

But the value line deserves great designs just as much as the premium line.

Surfingringo wrote:

David Lowry wrote: No worries Gringo. It was late and I misunderstood. Yeah I don't want to argue either. Not what I meant. :) I do like the Efficient for what it's worth.

Hah, its all good. I forgot there were two "Davids" in that discussion. I was actually responding to the Evil one. hehe. Ok, y'all carry on. I'm off to get a carbon fiber hood and louvers installed on my Fiero. ;p

LOL. Yeah, sometimes when people are talking to "David" I have to remember that it may not be me. It could be Evil D. Have fun with the Fiero. :p

I just looked at it for the first time. The profile sure reminds me of a Native 5.

It was a pleasure to work with Eric on this design. Spyderco has a formula that it applies to the costs of inputs to determine the price. Where ever Spyderco takes this design, like scales or steel will be subject to their pricing formula. It will be a good value. Remember Spyderco brought ZDP189 to their lineup of steels in affordable knives. Spyderco wants to meet the needs and preferences of the end line user. The company continues to evolve along with their knives....Ed

I ordered a Para 3 and an Efficient on the same day about two weeks ago. Since I got them, guess which one has been getting more pocket time?

The Efficient, by about 2:1.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Para 3. It's an incredible ergonomic design, and an extremely well made knife with great materials.

But the Efficient, at $80 less, seems like much more of an achievement. I knew the Para 3 would be great, but I suspected the Efficient would be merely "good." I was wrong - it's great too. There are a few tiny (and I mean tiny) imperfections on mine in terms of fit-and-finish, and the grind is very slightly wonky where it approaches the tang, but nothing major. The contoured handles are extremely comfortable, and the operation is very, very smooth. It's a much nicer knife than, say, the Cat, or any of the Tenacious line that I've handled. The 8cr13mov is, well, it is what it is. And it's good enough for most things.

Bravo, Ed, Eric, Sal and the rest of the team.

(Now I want brown and blue handle colors, please.)

An example of such an "jazzed up" budget knife that I personally would never look at is the titanium Byrd knives. A concept I really don't understand at all. In that particular case the upgrade and money went into fitting an ordinary Byrdmodel with titanium handle. That is, no steel upgrades or anything else if I understand it correctly.

I agree with Larrs_Mott on this one. Different models in different price categories maximizes the model range without "bluring" the lines too much as I a see it. A second issue here might be the country of origin. Made in China is a red blanket for some as I understand it. Not so much for me personally for several reasons. One being that it's bloody hard to try to avoid things made in China in general like most electronics, e.g. the computer I'm writing this on. Therefore it isn't a giant issue for me when it comes to knives either. Another reason is that all knives I buy are made "overseas" from my perspective being a Swede, it's just a matter of which sea! :)

/ J