Spyderco Forums

Cujobob wrote:

dplafoll wrote:

Cujobob wrote:The addition of flippers and Emerson openers makes the knife become a gimmick instead of a tool IMO. They solve a problem nobody has and introduce new issues (messing up ergos and pants, becoming illegal to carry in many areas, etc)

Next to the SpyderHole, a flipper if implemented properly can be a very reliable opening method, and that can be useful to some people in some applications. I don't like assisted openers, but I also know some people like an assisted flipper because the tab is very easy to access and with the assist provides essentially flawless one-hand opening reliability.

Flipper tabs are in the way both when closed and open. Front flippers are my preferred method if going that route, for that reason. Assisted knives break. Fairly easily, too. My Blur's assist broke in less than a month and without it has no detent so isn't safe to carry.
What problem do these solve, though? Is the Military difficult to open? Do users commonly run into situations where they need to open their knives a fraction of a second faster (if at all)? Most flippers also run on bearings which either can break (ceramic) or deform (metal). Statistically speaking, you are more likely to have a gun stolen from your home than be used to defend your home. Now that's a gun. Imagine how often people find themselves using a knife to defend themselves and going even further, how often the initial moment the knife is withdrawn being critical to that use.

Adding these complexities to a knife adds cost, hurts the ergos, makes them more prone to accidents, and really doesn't improve the performance at just about anything. If someone is worried about SD, get pepper spray. Requires little training and is far less likely to get you killed.

I feel like you've missed the point of my post, and I apologize for being unclear. Your response has several statements that present your opinions in the form of facts, but cannot be proven as such, and it also mentions an issue(self-defense) that I didn't bring up in the first place. You also made a blanket statement about the pervasiveness of bearings, but from what data? And what data supports your assertion that ceramic or metal bearings will break or deform, especially considering how unlikely that seems to be if the rest of the knife were not also destroyed from gross misuse?
I don't mind a discussion of opinions, but your response consists almost entirely of opinions or statements without data. Can you provide information that proves that flipper tabs are in the way for all people? Or that the flipper tab adds cost to all knives? Those seem to be opinions. Or are you talking about the Emerson wave opener? If so, your response is ambiguous to me, as you've responded to my post that addresses flippers only.
I want to understand your response, but I'm having trouble with it. Can you clarify your statements for me?

It wouldn't appeal to me much in regards to either platform. I don't carry my PM2 anymore as is, and I think the Military is the wrong knife for the wave feature.

Unless the Millie was altered to be tip up, and the lock beefed up to MBC rating, I'd be much happier without the wave.

The wave works well for what it is intended to do, but with my experience carrying my Emerson or my Gunting, large protrusions simply lead to more accidental pocket openings. The added effort to not unintentionally wave the knife when pulling from my pocket, or simply sticking my hand in, isn't worth it to me. Though detent strength is part of this particular issue.

As far as effecting cutting performance or functionality, a wave shouldn't interfere with that at all. Since it is made out of the blade itself it wouldn't add any bulges or protrusions, unless of course you went with the "not a wave, wave opener" like some companies and just added a thumb disk that conveniently work as a wave.

dplafoll wrote:

Cujobob wrote:

dplafoll wrote:

Cujobob wrote:The addition of flippers and Emerson openers makes the knife become a gimmick instead of a tool IMO. They solve a problem nobody has and introduce new issues (messing up ergos and pants, becoming illegal to carry in many areas, etc)

Next to the SpyderHole, a flipper if implemented properly can be a very reliable opening method, and that can be useful to some people in some applications. I don't like assisted openers, but I also know some people like an assisted flipper because the tab is very easy to access and with the assist provides essentially flawless one-hand opening reliability.

Flipper tabs are in the way both when closed and open. Front flippers are my preferred method if going that route, for that reason. Assisted knives break. Fairly easily, too. My Blur's assist broke in less than a month and without it has no detent so isn't safe to carry.
What problem do these solve, though? Is the Military difficult to open? Do users commonly run into situations where they need to open their knives a fraction of a second faster (if at all)? Most flippers also run on bearings which either can break (ceramic) or deform (metal). Statistically speaking, you are more likely to have a gun stolen from your home than be used to defend your home. Now that's a gun. Imagine how often people find themselves using a knife to defend themselves and going even further, how often the initial moment the knife is withdrawn being critical to that use.

Adding these complexities to a knife adds cost, hurts the ergos, makes them more prone to accidents, and really doesn't improve the performance at just about anything. If someone is worried about SD, get pepper spray. Requires little training and is far less likely to get you killed.

I feel like you've missed the point of my post, and I apologize for being unclear. Your response has several statements that present your opinions in the form of facts, but cannot be proven as such, and it also mentions an issue(self-defense) that I didn't bring up in the first place. You also made a blanket statement about the pervasiveness of bearings, but from what data? And what data supports your assertion that ceramic or metal bearings will break or deform, especially considering how unlikely that seems to be if the rest of the knife were not also destroyed from gross misuse?
I don't mind a discussion of opinions, but your response consists almost entirely of opinions or statements without data. Can you provide information that proves that flipper tabs are in the way for all people? Or that the flipper tab adds cost to all knives? Those seem to be opinions. Or are you talking about the Emerson wave opener? If so, your response is ambiguous to me, as you've responded to my post that addresses flippers only.
I want to understand your response, but I'm having trouble with it. Can you clarify your statements for me?

I'm doing this mobile while working so I apologize if I can't touch on everything in advance.

Bearings deform and break, it's fairly well known by many knifemakers. I think it was Will Moon who ranted on it in a video on YouTube regarding his preferences and why, but other makers have said similar things. Ceramic is brittle and stainless bearings in a ball shape can bend under lateral stress. Using them, as I stated, solves a problem we don't have. You can make a washer knife that opens smoothly and quickly. No added costs, no additional wear from bearing tracks to account for, and they're very reliable. Steel bearings deforming is common knowledge (think:detent balls) and ceramic properties are also well known. Bearings wear away titanium and even the steel washers used to keep them off of the titanium has been called into question with Spyderco because many believe they aren't thick enough. Then, you take in assisted openers and it's even more parts that break. They are known for breaking easily.

Flipper tabs: they stick out on most knives. When they're closed, it will nearly always be the case an additional piece of steel is poking out from the handle. When open, they create a finger guard (usually) but it also keeps one's hand further from the blade. Some designs get around this or use smaller tabs or hide the flipper better, but the majority do not. They also generally force the maker to increase the detent pressure which makes opening the knife by a stud or hole more difficult. Spyderco doesn't do this, but this is why many don't praise the Spyderco flippers for tremendous flipping action (the few I have owned are just fine IMO but they do not flip hard).

Feel free to disagree. I'm just ranting because knives seem to be getting rather gimmicky and often people just sort of assume that these gimmicks are improvements without a downside to implementing them.

Cujobob wrote:

dplafoll wrote:I feel like you've missed the point of my post, and I apologize for being unclear. Your response has several statements that present your opinions in the form of facts, but cannot be proven as such, and it also mentions an issue(self-defense) that I didn't bring up in the first place. You also made a blanket statement about the pervasiveness of bearings, but from what data? And what data supports your assertion that ceramic or metal bearings will break or deform, especially considering how unlikely that seems to be if the rest of the knife were not also destroyed from gross misuse?
I don't mind a discussion of opinions, but your response consists almost entirely of opinions or statements without data. Can you provide information that proves that flipper tabs are in the way for all people? Or that the flipper tab adds cost to all knives? Those seem to be opinions. Or are you talking about the Emerson wave opener? If so, your response is ambiguous to me, as you've responded to my post that addresses flippers only.
I want to understand your response, but I'm having trouble with it. Can you clarify your statements for me?

I'm doing this mobile while working so I apologize if I can't touch on everything in advance.

Bearings deform and break, it's fairly well known by many knifemakers. I think it was Will Moon who ranted on it in a video on YouTube regarding his preferences and why, but other makers have said similar things. Ceramic is brittle and stainless bearings in a ball shape can bend under lateral stress. Using them, as I stated, solves a problem we don't have. You can make a washer knife that opens smoothly and quickly. No added costs, no additional wear from bearing tracks to account for, and they're very reliable. Steel bearings deforming is common knowledge (think:detent balls) and ceramic properties are also well known. Bearings wear away titanium and even the steel washers used to keep them off of the titanium has been called into question with Spyderco because many believe they aren't thick enough. Then, you take in assisted openers and it's even more parts that break. They are known for breaking easily.

Flipper tabs: they stick out on most knives. When they're closed, it will nearly always be the case an additional piece of steel is poking out from the handle. When open, they create a finger guard (usually) but it also keeps one's hand further from the blade. Some designs get around this or use smaller tabs or hide the flipper better, but the majority do not. They also generally force the maker to increase the detent pressure which makes opening the knife by a stud or hole more difficult. Spyderco doesn't do this, but this is why many don't praise the Spyderco flippers for tremendous flipping action (the few I have owned are just fine IMO but they do not flip hard).

Feel free to disagree. I'm just ranting because knives seem to be getting rather gimmicky and often people just sort of assume that these gimmicks are improvements without a downside to implementing them.

Fair enough. I hadn't heard enough about bearings to get the impression that it was a common issue. I get that it can be an issue at all; I just didn't realize it wasn't rare. And I agree that bearings are unnecessary to create a smooth action, and that they can introduce problems. But I also know that, until it's demonstrated that the rate of failure is high enough to justify never using them, that I don't mind having them.

All of that is true, and I agree with it because those are facts. However, for a lot of people, the benefits of a flipper outweigh having a flipper tab that sticks out. I personally really like the flippers I have, and I haven't had any problems with the tab sticking out. You're right about Spyderco flippers not flipping hard like others, but I think that's alright like you said. While I completely agree with assists being prone to breakage, I'll also point out that an assisted flipper can get away with a very small flipper tab since you don't need as much leverage.

And i can absolutely agree with the gimmicks on knives these days. I don't think flippers in general are gimmicks, just another opening method with pros and cons that, for the most part, come down to personal preference. I just think it's important for us to recognize that, up to a point, personal preference is just as important as anything else. I don't like Timascus, but a lot of people do. I prefer a SpyderHole, but some people like thumb studs. And let's not even get into steel preferences. The point is, as long as the person is enjoying their knives for whatever purpose that person intends(user or otherwise), I don't think we should judge. One person's gimmick is another person's favorite feature.
Now, the exception to all this comes in with build quality and fit/finish. I won't argue that personal preference makes a $5 Gas Station Special a "good knife", just like any other cheaply-made tool compared to even a slightly more expensive tool. That same person could spend 400% of the price and buy something like a Kershaw or a CRKT or a Byrd for $20, but get a much larger increase in value and utility.
But that's not really the comparison we're discussing; we're talking about adding a feature that many people like onto a knife that's very good and very popular. Personally I don't see it happening due to economic reasons; they are already at capacity selling Millies and PM2s as it is, and adding another model of each that almost certainly won't sell as well just doesn't make sense.