Goldenstone & Duckfoot: How do you all use them?

[PMBohol]

I think a cbn benchstone would be a big hit. I would buy a set.

[JD Spydo]

I think a cbn benchstone would be a big hit. I would buy a set.

I'm sure they are on their way down the product pipeline at the Great Spyder Factory. My jury is still out on the CBN abrasives but I'm positive from what I've heard so far.

The ceramic that Spyderco's original stones are made of is good stuff and does a great finished edge on everything I've used it on. I'm still baffled as to why no enthusiast or knife afi hasn't done their own YOUTUBE video on the Goldenstone as of yet. I think it's because of the very limited information on it might be one reason for that.

I do believe that from a machinists standpoint that the Goldenstone has the potential of being a great "deburring tool'. I already know first hand that the 701 Profiles are a great deburring tool and just a great file in general.

Being that CBN is just right below "diamond" on the "Moh's Hardness Scale" it has the potential of even making several abrasives obsolete for the most part. I also wonder if abrasive paper (sandpaper) made of CBN would be affordable? And if it is I'm wondering how it would compare to current abrasive sandpapers?

[PMBohol]

My big question about the Goldenstone is the method of sharpening. A right handed person has no problem on the right side but the left side sharpening is awkward. If one was to stand facing the edge of the Goldenstone would that be a better stance?

There is a lot of potential for this product.

[Cliff Stamp]

Being that CBN is just right below "diamond" on the "Moh's Hardness Scale" it has the potential of even making several abrasives obsolete for the most part. I also wonder if abrasive paper (sandpaper) made of CBN would be affordable? And if it is I'm wondering how it would compare to current abrasive sandpapers?

Diamond and CBN are very expensive, diamond abrasives are twice as much as silicon carbide for example on PSA sheets. The question then is what benefit are you getting for paying twice as much, or getting half as much abrasive for the same price? Do they last twice as long?

For serious work you can buy solid silicon carbide stones which last an extremely long time and have a much lower cost per sharpening than the PSA sheets. To wear out an actual sharpening stone, even in a medium grit takes a LONG time as in 1/2 to a million passes, you simple won't wear out the fine ones as the rate of wear is proportional to the grit size.

However for small items, for things like files and for people who don't want/won't flatten/soak stones and use water/oil, the diamond/CBN plates are a decent idea. However the cost of them alone will ensure they never make general abrasives obsolete.

Just take a look in the tooling industry, alumina abrasives are still commonly used because they are very inexpensive, very tough (the abrasive is not friable/won't break down), and works well on a broad range of materials. Diamond isn't used to grind ferrous materials at all and CBN is much more expensive than alumina.

[sir_mike]

How about a CBN or diamond 701 stick??? Dont forget about making a ultra fine 701 stick too!!! Those would be sweet! :D

@cliff stamp - are you referring to a Norton SiC stone or some other?

[JD Spydo]

Diamond and CBN are very expensive, diamond abrasives are twice as much as silicon carbide for example on PSA sheets. The question then is what benefit are you getting for paying twice as much, or getting half as much abrasive for the same price? Do they last twice as long?

For serious work you can buy solid silicon carbide stones which last an extremely long time and have a much lower cost per sharpening than the PSA sheets. To wear out an actual sharpening stone, even in a medium grit takes a LONG time as in 1/2 to a million passes, you simple won't wear out the fine ones as the rate of wear is proportional to the grit size.

However for small items, for things like files and for people who don't want/won't flatten/soak stones and use water/oil, the diamond/CBN plates are a decent idea. However the cost of them alone will ensure they never make general abrasives obsolete.

Just take a look in the tooling industry, alumina abrasives are still commonly used because they are very inexpensive, very tough (the abrasive is not friable/won't break down), and works well on a broad range of materials. Diamond isn't used to grind ferrous materials at all and CBN is much more expensive than alumina.

Great points you make there Cliff>> I was just kind of thinking out loud and pondering what could also be done with this new kid on the block i.e. Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN). Yeah I kind of thought that maybe it would be cost prohibitive to make a "sandpaper" out of CBN and you're so right about the aluminum oxide and other abrasives in that range of hardness as well as the ideal abrasive properties it has.

I'm definitely going to check out getting a block and/or benchstone made from silicon carbide. I remember when working in the machine shop I used to work with silicon carbide paper and other tools made with it>> it really did a nice job of finishing and deburring metal of all types. It didn't leave a really scratchy look like many of the other abrasives did but the stuff we were using was very small grit for the most part.

I'm really looking forward to all of these new CBN abrasive tools that are coming down the Spyderco pipeline. It is starting to make sense to me now as to why they've deleted some of the sharpening tools like the 701 Profiles from the main line up. I do hope that they do a lot of different things to the Goldenstone and Duckfoot tools. That too is starting to make sense to me as to why they haven't done an instructional video as of yet on those sharpening tools.

Another type of stone we had at our machine shop was abrasive blocks made from "RUBY" of all things. It seemed like it had a lot of polishing effects like novaculite ( Arkansas Stones) and "coticules" (Belgium Razor Stones"). I forget the name of the company that made those "RUBY" abrasive stones but they served the machine tool industry and I hope that the name comes to me soon.

I don't know if Spyderco has the technology to make the Goldenstone and/or Duckfoot in these other materials. Because I distinctly remember that Mr. Glesser said they had the design of the Goldenstone as far back as the 80s but didn't yet have the technology to make it at that time. Now they obviously do. It's very interesting to see what is coming to us in sharpening gear. This thread is getting interesting. Anyone who has anything to add concerning any new abrasives or sharpening gear feel free to chime in. JD

[Cliff Stamp]

Great points you make there Cliff>> I was just kind of thinking out loud and pondering what could also be done with this new kid on the block i.e. Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN).

It is similar in that it is very expensive and thus it is used in the tooling industry to generally grind things like ceramics. Just take a look at the raw prices and compare getting say a lbs of CBN grit vs Alumina. These much harder abrasives have their place but unless their cost comes way down it is unlikely that they would ever replace traditional abrasives.

There is a growing movement to add very hard abrasives to stones to "supercharge" them, however I am not sure that this is actually doing anything, most of the reports are very anecdotal and lack any kind of even basic experimental controls so it is hard to know what they are seeing.

Ruby by the way is just aluminum oxide (which has chromium in it, hence the red color). The next time your significant other asks for jewelry then just snap off a piece of a stone and give it to them and tell them it is the most pure gemstone you can get, it is actually much more pure than a ruby which has the trace impurity in it which gives it that red color.

[Jax]

I believe I have some ruby abrasive in one of my lansky kits,it is a 600 grit but feels far finer.
It is also very hard,and very resistant to wear (if it has even worn at all yet)
It must be solid sintered,judging by how the other aluminum oxide in the kit dishes due to a purposeful soft binder (like a India stone).

My opinion on spyderco abrasives is,I would like to see some courser grits.
Something like a 240gr.
I also think they could use a 700 or 800gr.

[JD Spydo]

It is similar in that it is very expensive and thus it is used in the tooling industry to generally grind things like ceramics. Just take a look at the raw prices and compare getting say a lbs of CBN grit vs Alumina. These much harder abrasives have their place but unless their cost comes way down it is unlikely that they would ever replace traditional abrasives.

There is a growing movement to add very hard abrasives to stones to "supercharge" them, however I am not sure that this is actually doing anything, most of the reports are very anecdotal and lack any kind of even basic experimental controls so it is hard to know what they are seeing.

Anytime something is new or you have a new technology the price is always high at first. I don't know what process is used to make "cubic boron Nitride" but I'm sure it's a costly ordeal or we would have probably had it for tool use a long time ago. Or maybe the manufacturers of CBN are just trying to re-coop their research and development costs which can be terribly high in the early going. Or they could be taking advantage of being first up to offer this new product maybe?

You know when you think about it all the diamond sharpening tools we now have an abundance of were not available at affordable prices even two decades ago. Also you didn't even see it used much as recent as the 80s in machine tool shops. However diamond tools aren't bargain cheap even by today's standards but they are still more available and more affordable than they were as recent as 15 years ago. And the first DMT stuff I had in the early 90s wasn't nearly as good of equipment as many of their newer products are now. But now there are many reputable companies that offer very good quality diamond sharpening tools at affordable prices and most of them are pretty decent quality.

As far as a cheap way to reprofile a blade I aquired a very intersting older stone on Ebay about 10 years ago and surprisingly it abrades steel at a fairly rapid rate>> it was made by Norton and is called a QUEER CREEK natural stone. I got it for about $7 if my memory serves me well. It's not as good or as fast as diamond but like the point you've made it's much cheaper and will accomplish most anything you need it for in respect to reprofiling and abrading really dinged up blades.

I'm definitely going to take your advice and check out some silicon carbide sharpening tools and I'm also going to get a few different grits of silican Carbide sandpaper to add to what I already have. Most of what I have in silicon carbide is very fine grit. Silicon Carbide does seem to do a very uniform job and is a good abrasive for a lot metal working jobs it seem to abrade slowly but very evenly and that has advantages.

Like I said in one previous post "my jury is still out on CBN" because I've not even used it yet or seen anyone use it for that matter. I'm definitely looking forward to test driving it but I doubt if I invest a ton of money in CBN equipment until I learn more about it. Because after all diamond is still the hardest known substance on the "Moh's Hardness Scale" and I have pretty decent luck with it for reprofiling and rapid stock removal from really dinged up and beat up blades. For finishing work I still find Spyderco's ceramic stuff really decent quality and I've been extremely pleased with it. I am seriously looking at some of "Shapton's" find products and I'm liking what I hear about it in finishing work and putting wicked edges on blades and woodworking tools. Interesting thread you guys and I really do appreciate all the feedback you guys have put forth.

[Cliff Stamp]

CBN is not a new abrasive, it has been around for ~50 years, it is just a particular form of boron nitride. It is only recently (in the last decade) that it has been able to be produced with enough efficiency to allow it to compete with diamond as a super-hard abrasive. However perspective is needed as to the gains from using such an abrasive. In a flat plate you need the most hard and slow wear abrasive you can get as you only have one layer of it, but for stones and replaceable material like sandpaper it simply can't compete because of the benefits vs the cost.

In stones for example which try to maintain a very high level of cutting ability you actually want friable abrasives which is why people tend to like silicon carbide for cutting HSS and similar. While CBN has its uses, just like steels have there uses, you would not want every tooling abrasive to be CBN just like you would not want every tool to be HSS even if it costs the same as a piece of simple carbon steel.

As with any field there are emerging uses of CBN and all abrasives, even files are now starting to be made of super hard materials. Just think of a normal steel file but made out of a super hard ceramic. It cuts like a file but wears like a ceramic - these are actually available. Based on using the CBN Sharpmaker stones recently for utility blades then a combination type stone with CBN and medium or fine on another side would be very nice for a lot of applications.

[JD Spydo]

In stones for example which try to maintain a very high level of cutting ability you actually want friable abrasives which is why people tend to like silicon carbide for cutting HSS and similar.

As with any field there are emerging uses of CBN and all abrasives, even files are now starting to be made of super hard materials. Just think of a normal steel file but made out of a super hard ceramic. It cuts like a file but wears like a ceramic - these are actually available. Based on using the CBN Sharpmaker stones recently for utility blades then a combination type stone with CBN and medium or fine on another side would be very nice for a lot of applications.

I'm definitely going to get a set of the CBN stones for my own 204 Sharpmakers because I love playing with that device and I've been able to really put some great edges on knife blades and some woodworking chisels as well. I'm looking forward to trying them out for a lot of sharpening jobs.

Speaking of files you mentioned? How do these ceramic files you speak of compare to the Spyderco 701 Profiles? Are they similar or better? I really love the 701 Profiles for a lot of sharpening jobs and especially to get really fine edges on serrated/Spyderedged blades. I like them as well for recurves and plain edged Hawkbills for a razor edge. I would like to try out other ceramic files on the market if there are any others that would do as well or even better than the Spyderco 701 Profiles.

I'm also wondering just how well the Duckfoot and Goldenstone units would work with CBN? It's always interesting to try out new stuff dealing with sharpening and deburring.