The Two Sides of Flippers

[Evil D]

It's gotten to the point where I consider picking up two or three at dealer price so I can help out members that might not have had a chance to grab one on release. Gives me a warm fuzzy.

Yeah I hear ya. I do/will if I have the cash at the time. I've even considered selling my forum Native just because I still haven't brought myself to use it.

[Philo Beddoe]

Evil? LOL. If some dude buys a knife then turns around and sells it and makes $20 in the process WOW big deal :rolleyes: , if that's all you've got to worry about in this world well, IMO you have it pretty good and you also have to much time on your hands..

IMO the real problem here is that some people are lazy and don't want to do the necessary work to make sure they get one of these sprint runs..they just want the knife to fall out of the sky into their lap without doing a single thing for it..it doesn't work like that.

[DRKBC]

Evil? LOL. If some dude buys a knife then turns around and sells it and makes $20 in the process WOW big deal :rolleyes: , if that's all you've got to worry about in this world well, IMO you have it pretty good and you also have to much time on your hands..

IMO the real problem here is that some people are lazy and don't want to do the necessary work to make sure they get one of these sprint runs..they just want the knife to fall out of the sky into their lap without doing a single thing for it..it doesn't work like that.

It would be fine if it was $20 it rarely is, some almost double out of the gate. For many of the people that do miss a knife that they wanted it isn't that they have too much time on there hands but not enough. If they aren't glued to the forums and constantly checking online dealers they can miss the opportunity and then if they really want it, they have to pay through the nose to get it.

[bh49]

All talks about the money, which "flippers" are making is making the same sense like counting money in somebody else pocket. Some times they make $20, some times $100, sometime loose. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy from anybody. Personally I bought only one knife at higher price. It was my second Orange Dodo. I paid about $160 shortly after sprint was released. I bought it from known forum member and I still thankful to him for opportunity.

[gbelleh]

Not defending anything one way or another, but just a thought... eBay and PayPal also take quite a chunk out of any profits. The couple times I've sold on eBay, I had to raise my price accordingly just to cover all the fees involved. When you pay $200 shipped for a knife on eBay, the seller will be lucky to get $160 and might have to wait 2 or 3 weeks to actually receive the funds. BST forums are usually far more profitable for sellers to use.

[Jay_Ev]

Evil? LOL. If some dude buys a knife then turns around and sells it and makes $20 in the process WOW big deal :rolleyes:

You are minimizing the issue to make it sound less significant than it actually is. Most of the time it's not just a matter of $20 but rather 2-3x the price of the knife.

[Blerv]

At least flippers or speculative investors allow you to find a knife a decade old in great shape. Try that with any consumer good that doesn't have a strong following. You find rusty and abused products.

Hobby goods are what people buy in excess of their budget, if people couldn't afford food the morality gets far more sticky. IMHO, except for a few exceptions, you can get ahold of any sprint you want by:

* watch and dive like a hawk
* hope preorders work
* pay more money

If I had to buy a $300 Para2 sprint once in a while it wouldn't bug me. If every knife I bought experienced that level of profiteering it would. I probably just wouldn't buy as many knives. Probably similar to our brothers and sisters in the UK who pay higher prices for the same goods.

[Jay_Ev]

At least flippers or speculative investors allow you to find a knife a decade old in great shape.

Very true. However, as was mentioned earlier, I believe the focus here is more geared toward a "speculative investor" (I'm diggin' the P.C. terminology :) ) who does this not with a knife that is 10+ years old but rather with a knife that is a mere 10 minutes old. For example, putting the knife on ebay minutes after buying it.

[The Deacon]

To me, in order to be labeled a "flipper", a person must purchase multiples of a given "limited edition" knife, sell all (or all except one) of them within months of their purchase, and repeat this process with more than one model. I see nothing wrong with someone buying a knife, deciding it's not for them, and selling it for whatever the traffic will bear. To me, that's not "flipping". I see nothing wrong with someone who has taken on the major financial commitment of Collectors Club membership selling off his single, numbered, specimen of a model that does not fit into his personal collection for whatever he can get for it. I can guarantee that, for every one he sells at a high profit, he'll take a beating on ten others.

[SolidState]

OTOH, I'm amused by the number of folks who think they are entitled to a deep discount on every knife they buy, and that a legitimate dealer who chooses to sell some or all of their knives at full MSRP, or close to it, is doing something wrong.

I think this ends up being the case a lot more than people charging crazy high prices. When people are used to paying near cost, they get mad when they have to pay MSRP and call it scalping.

[jalcon]

Speaking of ebay, is this legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spyderco-Leafst ... 53f27d0e4b

Sold for $2233.57 ? What?

[JNewell]

Speaking of ebay, is this legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spyderco-Leafst ... 53f27d0e4b

Sold for $2233.57 ? What?

Something's going on there. If you search his 'sold' auctions, there are lots of items that were sold at exactly that price.

[Evil D]

Ok I'm not gonna lie, if Leafstorms were selling for $2200 I'd be a flipper for a living :D

[Douglas]

If demand at the factory-set price exceeds supply, then the secondary market will find an equilibrium price where demand doesn't exceed supply. That price will be even higher than the market price that the factory could have set, as supply to the secondary market is lower than total units sold - those sold at factory price to collectors who wouldn't buy at a higher price but won't resell have the effect of raising the equilibrium price of the secondary market by decreasing the supply to the secondary market without diminishing the demand at the secondary market's higher price.

Railing against flippers is pointless. If someone (in this case Spyderco) is selling at a lower price than the market will bear, there will always be someone who will be interested on making a profit on the difference. If Spyderco would like to do something about flippers, they either need to raise their own prices to lower demand to the point where it doesn't greatly outstrip supply, or increase production of these runs to raise supply to the point where there isn't unmet demand at the factory selling price. Trying to solve the problem by means of morally denouncing flippers will be about as effective as posting a sign outside your Gulf Coast vacation home demanding that hurricanes make landfall somewhere else.

Alternatively, one could outlaw private sales. But if private sales are outlawed, only outlaws will have cruwear Millies. :)

[Blerv]

I think this ends up being the case a lot more than people charging crazy high prices. When people are used to paying near cost, they get mad when they have to pay MSRP and call it scalping.

Yep.

Is a Para2 at $300 insanity when it will last well over 10 years of rugged use? To me that seems insanely cheap. Talk to ANY mechanic about quality tools and how much they have invested in their trade.

Here is the counter-point to flippers: Spyderco and dealers unload hundreds of knives and all make money. This funds more production and inventory. Everyone makes money quickly with less risk to keep our retail dream pricing structure alive.

Again, there are extremely few sprints which sell so quickly that people can't get them at low retail pricing (by being quick or waiting a few weeks). Even less if you aren't on the Para2 trendwagon. That also means the trade of flipping is a volatile one that caters to a small audience of uneducated or impatient buyers. Frankly...it's not an occupation I would take up.

Protip: put $300 into a grail fun each year. Shop normally and enjoy your life. If a CF 110v Para2 releases and is sold in 5 seconds, pay a dirty flipper for the knife. That way you aren't burning a hole in your stomach lining or scheduling a stroke.

[Philo Beddoe]

It would be fine if it was $20 it rarely is, some almost double out of the gate. For many of the people that do miss a knife that they wanted it isn't that they have too much time on there hands but not enough. If they aren't glued to the forums and constantly checking online dealers they can miss the opportunity and then if they really want it, they have to pay through the nose to get it.

I have very little free time but I was able to secure 2 of the Cruware millies, one to use and one to keep as a backup in case I lose/severely damage the first one.

One was from GPK for $149 shipped and the second came from NGK for $164 shipped.

It was a PIA but I made the time and made it happen.

[Philo Beddoe]

You are minimizing the issue to make it sound less significant than it actually is. Most of the time it's not just a matter of $20 but rather 2-3x the price of the knife.

2-3x?? Where are you getting your math from?

Lets take the Cruware military as a example..I've bought 2, one for $149 and the other for $164, according to your math I would have to sell the cheaper one for $300 to $450..since it seems 90% of flipping occurs on fleabay I went went over there and took a look and the highest one SOLD so far is $240 and most are selling around $210 average and several lower..subtract fleabay/pp fees from $210 and that's a long way from your numbers..

Now, if I pull that same BNIB Cruware Millie out of the drawer 10 years from now and sell it for $450 I guarantee I wouldn't hear one peep/complaint about it..

[mikerestivo]

2-3x?? Where are you getting your math from?

Lets take the Cruware military as a example..I've bought 2, one for $149 and the other for $164, according to your math I would have to sell the cheaper one for $300 to $450..since it seems 90% of flipping occurs on fleabay I went went over there and took a look and the highest one SOLD so far is $240 and most are selling around $210 average and several lower..subtract fleabay/pp fees from $210 and that's a long way from your numbers..

Now, if I pull that same BNIB Cruware Millie out of the drawer 10 years from now and sell it for $450 I guarantee I wouldn't hear one peep/complaint about it..

I will add that you only provide an example of flipping with one recent model. Some others include the S90V Para 2, the Military M390, and the Blue Manix 2 sprint (folks that were around remember that these were being resold for crazy prices due to small initial run). I'm sure that his quote of 2 to 3 times initial cost may have been figurative as well, to infer that the price was quite a bit higher than initial sale pricing.

If you held on to that Cruwear Millie for 10 years and resold it for a profit, you will have done well with your sale, but that is not the topic of the conversation in this thread. The topic is flipping, and to restate, flipping is considered by most to be buying something with the intent of selling it quickly after purchase for profit.

[Jay_Ev]

2-3x?? Where are you getting your math from?

I don't know how to go back in the ebay results but I can assure you the green Para2 was selling for $3-400 for a $120 knife. Insult my math all you want, but myself and many forum members here were watching it happen.

[SolidState]

I'm just going to point out that the plain, s30V PM2 is a $186 knife http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=472

The sprint should probably be a $300 knife. The fact that you get them for $120 is a product of the internet allowing B&M stores to become obsolete, decreasing overhead and allowing dealers to cut into the built-in profit margin of MSRP. While I understand that it makes nobody happy to know they could have gotten something for less money had they been on the ball, or been luckier, it is just plain not accurate to quote 5% on dealer cost as the worth of the knife.