what's the problem s35vn ?

[Cliff Stamp]

It might take a bit of adjusting to get the geometries and hardness right with this still relatively new steel.

S35VN has the same hardening response, so there is no issue with getting it hard. It would be expected to have a slightly lower wear resistance than S30V, but this is needed to get the toughness and grinding/polishing improvement required. This decrease in wear resistance would be expected to be on the order of 10-15% only which would be at most a 5-10% difference in a CATRA result. There would thus be FAR more difference from one blade to the next than between two knives in the two steels.

Note even if you take fairly dramatic steel differences such as S30V and ZDP-189 and you take a half dozen blades of each, some of the S30V ones can match and even over take some of the ZDP-189 ones in long term wear comparisons, again due to differences in the steel itself from batch to batch, then issues with heat treatment, etc. . If you average the results of the S30V blades and average the results of the ZDP-189 blades you will see a clear advantage from ZDP-189 in such work, but point to point ones can be misleading.

[The Mastiff]

S35VN has the same hardening response, so there is no issue with getting it hard.

I understand what you are saying Cliff but I was just talking about running the steel a couple of points higher.

Joe

[jackknifeh]

S35VN has the same hardening response, so there is no issue with getting it hard. It would be expected to have a slightly lower wear resistance than S30V, but this is needed to get the toughness and grinding/polishing improvement required. This decrease in wear resistance would be expected to be on the order of 10-15% only which would be at most a 5-10% difference in a CATRA result. There would thus be FAR more difference from one blade to the next than between two knives in the two steels.

Note even if you take fairly dramatic steel differences such as S30V and ZDP-189 and you take a half dozen blades of each, some of the S30V ones can match and even over take some of the ZDP-189 ones in long term wear comparisons, again due to differences in the steel itself from batch to batch, then issues with heat treatment, etc. . If you average the results of the S30V blades and average the results of the ZDP-189 blades you will see a clear advantage from ZDP-189 in such work, but point to point ones can be misleading.

If this is true, and I think it might be, that would mean something like this could happen. You might have a ZDP-189 Michael Walker and a ZDP-189 Stretch. You might have a terrible time getting the MW sharp and a much easier time with the Stretch. Also, one blade may develope micro chips more easily than the other when cutting the same thing. The differences being the "batch" and end result of the heat treatment. Have I understood you correctly?

Jack

[Blerv]

It just seems a internet trend that if something doesn't excel in every way there is a "problem". Some evolutions need to give in order to take, especially at the upper echelon of performance.

I typically see a delivered product in an accepted status (by it's direct customers) as beneficial in some way to the end user. Perhaps too trusting but with total snobs like Sal it's a formula that seldom leaves disappointment.

Considering a Native5 comes with the same steel as a Sebenza when some competitors are justifying AUS8 for the same price, well...

[Cliff Stamp]

If this is true, and I think it might be, that would mean something like this could happen. You might have a ZDP-189 Michael Walker and a ZDP-189 Stretch. You might have a terrible time getting the MW sharp and a much easier time with the Stretch. Also, one blade may develope micro chips more easily than the other when cutting the same thing. The differences being the "batch" and end result of the heat treatment. Have I understood you correctly?

Exactly right, two blades at the exact same hardness can behave very differently. In fact you could have a blade at 57 HRC and the edge would resist rolling much stronger than the edge at 61 HRC. Hardness is a very gross measurement of the blade performance, it is a factor but does not tell the whole story. It is like for example if you wanted a blade to chop well it would need a decent weight, but you could not say that all blades which were 600 grams would chop better than all blades at 400 grams.

... I was just talking about running the steel a couple of points higher.

It is possible to get 62-64 HRC, high soak+oil+cold, the critical part is not stabilizing the austenite from the high soak as the percentage will be very high after the quench. If you don't get rid of that the edge will dent/chip/roll/impact very easily even at the high hardness.

Increasing the hardness by 1-2 points really has no significant increase on the blade strength at all as it is linear with HRC so you increase it by about 5% for that small an increase in hardness. The real reason that such changes make a difference is because they are doing something which either stops carbide precipitation, lowers retained austenite etc. .

[jackknifeh]

If this is true, and I think it might be, that would mean something like this could happen. You might have a ZDP-189 Michael Walker and a ZDP-189 Stretch. You might have a terrible time getting the MW sharp and a much easier time with the Stretch. Also, one blade may develope micro chips more easily than the other when cutting the same thing. The differences being the "batch" and end result of the heat treatment. Have I understood you correctly?

Jack

Exactly right, two blades at the exact same hardness can behave very differently. In fact you could have a blade at 57 HRC and the edge would resist rolling much stronger than the edge at 61 HRC. Hardness is a very gross measurement of the blade performance, it is a factor but does not tell the whole story. It is like for example if you wanted a blade to chop well it would need a decent weight, but you could not say that all blades which were 600 grams would chop better than all blades at 400 grams.

This may be why I've had a time with ZDP-189 getting micro-chips when other people seem to have no problem in that area. Of course, it also could be that I'm too picky since the chips I complain about are VERY tiny and don't hinder cutting in any way.

Jack

[DCDesigns]

The Deacon //As it is not ridiculous but at me sage2 has completely become blunted when I cut it a grass after that I not so trust powder steels and their superiority over china steel..

uhhhhh.... What?

[unit]

DC, Perhaps English is not his 1st language? If I recall, this is the person that cut saw grass (or similar) and noticed it dulled his edge considerably. For this reason, he does not trust powder metallurgy steels.

I have used some grasses to sharpen knives in the field (for giggles). Some contain a fair amount of silicates and it is not at all surprising that they could/would dull an edge.

[DCDesigns]

Well, it seems companies everywhere are switching to S35vn, so I hope all is well. The para 2 is about to come out in it as well...

[jackknifeh]

uhhhhh.... What?

I think lychesko is from another country (like Pittsburg) and doesn't have our grammer perfect. . :D Most of us don't either. :D

Jack

[phillipsted]

If you view enough YouTube videos you could very well come to believe every product made is crap. Personally, I'd put a lot more faith in the integrity of Sal Glesser and Chris Reeve than in some anonymous amateur.

I agree with Deacon - there is no way that Sal and Chris would be using this steel in their products if they didn't see performance or production benefits from using it. I trust their judgement - and look forward to running my forthcoming Para2 sprint through its paces...

TedP

[lychesko]

DC, Perhaps English is not his 1st language? If I recall, this is the person that cut saw grass (or similar) and noticed it dulled his edge considerably. For this reason, he does not trust powder metallurgy steels.

I have used some grasses to sharpen knives in the field (for giggles). Some contain a fair amount of silicates and it is not at all surprising that they could/would dull an edge.

You are right I communicate through Translater.I from Ukraine and it is difficult to me to understand many expressions

[lychesko]

I used a knife SAGE2 on kitchen and it constantly lost a sharpness appeared сколы and it at easy work. And if s35vn same that I don't want to pay for it so much!!! All thanks you are in many respects right!!!I want the checked up quality to which it is possible to trust
Instead of from party to party..But it isn't present..

[Slash]

Someone please pass the popcorn.

[HighDesertSpyder]

If you want to keep the trolls off the bridge... don't feed them :spyder:

[Donut]

Have we heard what the HRC on the Mules or Natives or Para's are running at?

[razorsharp]

The Deacon //As it is not ridiculous but at me sage2 has completely become blunted when I cut it a grass after that I not so trust powder steels and their superiority over china steel..

havent read the thread yet, dunno if anyone replied, but grass has silica in it iirc, that will dull the edge. Hope it doesnt turn you off all powder steel :)

[The Deacon]

The Deacon //As it is not ridiculous but at me sage2 has completely become blunted when I cut it a grass after that I not so trust powder steels and their superiority over china steel..

Your experience was not typical. There are two possible explanations. First possibility, you may have gotten a defective knife. Rare, and certainly abnormal, but it could happen. Second possibility, the grass you were cutting was something like marsh grass or bamboo.

EDITED TO ADD: Spyderco has been selling knives with CPM S30V blades for nearly ten years. If your experience was typical, or even something experienced by 10% of the users, I doubt it would have lasted this long.

[JNewell]

Have we heard what the HRC on the Mules or Natives or Para's are running at?

My Mule S35VN was 59Rc.

[c.joe]

It seems that bladeforum's solution is to raise the rockwell of s35vn to make up for its softness and rolling over. I have not personally experienced any any of this on my s35vn Sebbies but apparently people are rolling over, over simple rope.

I sent Heather an email asking about her opinions to see if they are aware of these problems or if they have any future plans. Here's what I got back.

Chris,

Thank you for your email. I have not been following the discussion on Bladeforums. I can tell you if there is a complaint with the S35VN steel the person should contact us and we will ask them to send it to us for examination. At this time we have no plans to change the Rockwell hardness of our knives as we do not see it as a problem. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to offer solutions to problems they perceive be it imagined or real. Chris has been successfully making knives for 25+ years now and in my opinion he knows what he is doing and uses the best materials out there. That being said, if you ever have a problem or a concern with your S35VN blade please feel free to let us know. Hopefully that will never happen and you can continue enjoying your S35Vn blade regardless of what other people think. Let me know if you have any more questions.

All the best,



Heather



Chris Reeve Knives

crkinfo@chrisreeve.com

To be very honest, Reeve is a hardheaded perfectionist & steel snob. He will talk steel with you for hours at any show he attends. From what I understand, if he can improve his product by 0.01%, he will jump on that opportunity.That's where s35vn comes in. Not sure what to say here, but as of now I trust Chris with his products and have to experience it myself. Not too sure about Spyderco's s35vn.