Spyderco Forums

If that particular goverment agency thinks that the OP is dangerous with just a baliyo, then they should have realized, that by their logic, that he would be as dangerous with a rolled up newspaper.

ChrisR wrote:To be honest, beyond the very rare thief that crops up in all of Society, the TSA guys are probably just doing what they think is their job and they are honest folk - just like the Customs guys over here.

....

Customs will go to inordinate lengths to seize whatever they can because they know that nobody has got the money to take them to Court and call their bluff.

That doesn't sound anything to me like honest folk doing their job. That sounds like petty, dishonest, power-hungry, pondscum, abusing their authority.

racer88 wrote:Fixed that for ya!

PS... I've wondered if they would confiscate those "tactical" pens that could double as a weapon. They're quite expensive. I don't own one, but I would hate to lose one of those.

Yes they are being confiscated....the first one happened on a US Flight just about a month ago...the reason behind the confiscation even though the Tactical Pen is not currently on the restricted Items list was.......(Drum roll)
"They are advertised as being Tactical".....Yet you can take knitting needle with points, a screw driver and even scissors if the blade isn't over 4" on board the airplane....but watch out BaliYo's are deadly instruments of mass destruction for sure.....Doc :D

marlinspike wrote:That doesn't sound anything to me like honest folk doing their job. That sounds like petty, dishonest, power-hungry, pondscum, abusing their authority.

It's a tricky one ... do I believe that it is an abuse of power? Yes, possibly but their actions are sanctioned and justified by their bosses who are in turn given power by the law-makers that we vote for - they aren't actually breaking any laws when they seize something. I was actually being more specific about the comment that suggested the TSA guy stole it for himself, which I very much doubt. That would suggest that the TSA guys are motivated by wanting to own these things and actually I think all you have to do is look at human nature and the various forces applied to the guys to see that the system is stacked in favour of them seizing totally legal things as well as the illegal ones - just because they can and their bosses encourage them to 'play it safe'.

Should the TSA guys err on the side of the passenger's rights and rely less on their bosses unflinching support? Yes, especially when the actual risk of all these things is tiny and it helps security not one jot. But you'd have to change it from the top down to get the desired result

Sadly the Stanford & Milgram experiments showed that ordinary, good folk can quite easily be convinced to do (sometimes very) bad things by obeying people in authority ... so we need to change the rules first to effect a solution :)

I wonder if they'd let me bring a punji stick aboard.

ChrisR wrote:It's a tricky one ... do I believe that it is an abuse of power? Yes, possibly but their actions are sanctioned and justified by their bosses who are in turn given power by the law-makers that we vote for - they aren't actually breaking any laws when they seize something.
....
Sadly the Stanford & Milgram experiments showed that ordinary, good folk can quite easily be convinced to do (sometimes very) bad things by obeying people in authority ... so we need to change the rules first to effect a solution :)

"Calling it your job don't make it right, boss."
I think you wrote the solution into the second portion that I quoted: stop obeying. I typically get the correct result in-aiport. Sure, they'll complain at me while they finally let me through, but the end result is the one I wanted, so they can talk about how lucky I am all they want, all I'm doing is making sure their own rules are followed.

marlinspike wrote:"Calling it your job don't make it right, boss."
I think you wrote the solution into the second portion that I quoted: stop obeying. I typically get the correct result in-aiport. Sure, they'll complain at me while they finally let me through, but the end result is the one I wanted, so they can talk about how lucky I am all they want, all I'm doing is making sure their own rules are followed.

Oh yeah, I am all in favour of sticking up for your rights - if you have the knowledge to do it and you're polite and it gets the desired result - like you said, you're only making them do their job properly :D Sadly, 99% of the population are just gullible enough or in too much of a hurry to defend themselves so the rules do still need addressing

ChrisR wrote:Oh yeah, I am all in favour of sticking up for your rights - if you have the knowledge to do it and you're polite and it gets the desired result - like you said, you're only making them do their job properly :D Sadly, 99% of the population are just gullible enough or in too much of a hurry to defend themselves so the rules do still need addressing

Pre-flight reading material
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... items.shtm

marlinspike wrote:Pre-flight reading material
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... items.shtm

Yeah, that's certainly got to be read & understood before making a flight ... but I noticed that rider which says:

The prohibited items list is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary. To ensure travelers' security, Transportation Security Officers (TSOs) may determine that an item not on the Prohibited Items List is prohibited.

That's what the TSA guy would have used as his get-out clause if he had been challenged ... he thought it was suspicious - so it gets seized - that's all the justification he needs, given the ludicrously wishy-washy rules they work under. :)

Dude that just straight sux!

Well, the pen does feature a Fisher Space Pen ink cartridge. 32 psi nitrogen charged with a tungsten ball bearing tip...jk

Sorry about your pen. Yea carry-on is always paranoia for me. Better to check it than get it taken or a fine.

ChrisR wrote:It's a tricky one ... do I believe that it is an abuse of power? Yes, possibly but their actions are sanctioned and justified by their bosses who are in turn given power by the law-makers that we vote for - they aren't actually breaking any laws when they seize something. I was actually being more specific about the comment that suggested the TSA guy stole it for himself, which I very much doubt. That would suggest that the TSA guys are motivated by wanting to own these things and actually I think all you have to do is look at human nature and the various forces applied to the guys to see that the system is stacked in favour of them seizing totally legal things as well as the illegal ones - just because they can and their bosses encourage them to 'play it safe'.

Should the TSA guys err on the side of the passenger's rights and rely less on their bosses unflinching support? Yes, especially when the actual risk of all these things is tiny and it helps security not one jot. But you'd have to change it from the top down to get the desired result

Sadly the Stanford & Milgram experiments showed that ordinary, good folk can quite easily be convinced to do (sometimes very) bad things by obeying people in authority ... so we need to change the rules first to effect a solution :)

Very good point, although many of the TSA's actions could be considered illegal, but they are somehow allowed to get away with it. Even if there is a provision that allows them to confiscate items not specified, the constitutional right against unjustified seizure of property should apply here. And that's just one of the TSA's abuses; they have many obvious and less obvious ones. You could even interpret their new scanners as a violation of the child pornography laws; since they display and save near naked images of children.

ChrisR wrote:Yeah, that's certainly got to be read & understood before making a flight ... but I noticed that rider which says:

That's what the TSA guy would have used as his get-out clause if he had been challenged ... he thought it was suspicious - so it gets seized - that's all the justification he needs, given the ludicrously wishy-washy rules they work under. :)

You're right, but in my experience they're never that clever.

Here's my conspiracy theory.

The TSA is being paid off by the airlines in order to force passengers to pay $50 for checked luggage.

These types of conspiracies are actually quite common. We all know that the packaging companies are making blister packs and other forms of packaging almost impossible to open because they have secretly bought up most of the knife manufacturers. And don't bother asking Sal as he had to sign a nondisclosure agreement.

3 things:

#1 My GF recently made it through security in Omaha NE with a native in her purse. Found it before returning and had it in her checked luggage.

#2 I have decided that flying is to be avoided if at all possible. I am driving to MS next week rather then flying. it is a 2 day drive, but I arrive with my dignity, toothpaste, and ballpoint pen.

However one thing I have noticed about TSA is in places like the Gulfport/Beloxi airport the TSA people are much better then elsewhere. It is a lower end state economically so the TSA job represents a better grade of pay in that area so decent people apply for the jobs. In other airports their previous job (and mental capability) was making french fries.

Tsujigiri wrote:Very good point, although many of the TSA's actions could be considered illegal, but they are somehow allowed to get away with it. Even if there is a provision that allows them to confiscate items not specified, the constitutional right against unjustified seizure of property should apply here.

Ahh, now there's the problem ... statute laws are written but the legality of a situation is only tested when it goes before a judge and then case law is written to clarify the situation. Unless someone is willing to risk a lot of money and take the TSA to court then it is unlikely to ever be proven either way.

Any code of rules that limits pens but allows certain tools like screw drivers for carry-on is inherently flawed.

Luckily nobody would ever use a screwdriver for crime...O_o

Sorry to hear about you loss SolidState. I've been thinking about getting one of those balisong pens for a while. They look really cool.

So after you complain to the TSA, complain to the airport in Milwaukee. They are the ones that let the TSA into the airport. The feds don't have the authority to make each airport have TSA in them. It's up to the local authorities. When you are finished complaining to the airport call the local DA. He has the authority to have TSA agents arrested who do not follow the law. TSA are not above the law. After talking with the DA call the Sheriff. He is the highest elected authority in America and has the power of the people behind him to stop the TSA in their tracks.

I constantly hear people complain about the TSA and their unlawful searches yet how many of those complaining are calling their Sheriff, their DA, the airport. The TSA does not have unilateral authority.

Blerv wrote:Any code of rules that limits pens but allows certain tools like screw drivers for carry-on is inherently flawed.

Luckily nobody would ever use a screwdriver for crime...O_o

You know that is very true....remember those thugs that surrounded Bernard Goetz with the sharpened screwdrivers, if he only knew they really just wanted to tighten his glasses for him he would have never shot them.....Doc :eek: :D

Dr. Snubnose wrote:[/B]

Yes they are being confiscated....the first one happened on a US Flight just about a month ago...the reason behind the confiscation even though the Tactical Pen is not currently on the restricted Items list was.......(Drum roll)
"They are advertised as being Tactical".....Yet you can take knitting needle with points, a screw driver and even scissors if the blade isn't over 4" on board the airplane....but watch out BaliYo's are deadly instruments of mass destruction for sure.....Doc :D

I better buy new pants before I fly again then… :p