As for the name, it's my fault. After taking so much crap from couch commandos for promoting the wharncliffe as a tactical design, I chose the name with the primary meaning of "get a wharncliffe"--be WHARNED. Obviously, I was also cognizant of the other meaning inferred by the knife.
I'm hoping that the name walks the fine line of being controversial without being irresponsible--kind of like "Instigator."
Thanks for posting MJ's comments...I like the design, and I'd like to think that all the quirky little details are for a particular purpose...but I do so dearly wish that the name and brand would be in a SMALLER FONT...and that MJ would pick a cool, simple name, rather than one in reaction to what is quoted from him above...all that writing really drives me crazy, and I feel takes away from a knife that seems very promising. I know I'll be getting one nonetheless! :D
Agent Starling
"Too many was too many, but way too many was just right."
Agent Starling wrote:Thanks for posting MJ's comments...I like the design, and I'd like to think that all the quirky little details are for a particular purpose...but I do so dearly wish that the name and brand would be in a SMALLER FONT...and that MJ would pick a cool, simple name, rather than one in reaction to what is quoted from him above...all that writing really drives me crazy, and I feel takes away from a knife that seems very promising. I know I'll be getting one nonetheless! :D
Agent Starling
Haha I like how he tells you how to remove it, though.
"I ain't looking for confusion, but it tends to follow me."
E4 white, E4 waved SE, Caspian Salt, Crossbill, Mule, white Dragonfly, Boker CLB Desert Subcom, BM Blackwood mini Skirmish,
I am put off by liners also, but after handling one of BH Crucible II folders......I was baffled at how thick and sturdy that liner lock was. If this new Wharnie has a similar liner then it should be good to go. We will see.
Looks great. Luvs the AUS-8, luvs the blade, loves the pocketclip attachment points, no luvs the liner lock. Only lock I like less is the integral linerlock/framelock/mullett linerlock. With a $99.99 MSRP, they could've tacked on $40-60 to license and use Sal's Compression Lock. Let the blade cut corners, not the lock.
"I knew you before you knew you had hands!" ~Tracey Brogan
"Ah-ha! A Spyderco moment!" ~Michael Cook
"Hawkbills - Sink in the tip and let it rip!" ~Axlis
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned" ~Richard Feynman
thombrogan wrote:Looks great. Luvs the AUS-8, luvs the blade, loves the pocketclip attachment points, no luvs the liner lock. Only lock I like less is the integral linerlock/framelock/mullett linerlock. With a $99.99 MSRP, they could've tacked on $40-60 to license and use Sal's Compression Lock. Let the blade cut corners, not the lock.
My guess is they wanted to avoid what I would call a tier 3 barrier priced knife. There are probably more price level barriers but I'm not an insider so don't know. There is a price point that magically cuts out a segment of the market. I believe tier one is below $50. Tier 2 is between $50 and $99. Tier 3 is above $99.
You price a knife at $100 and suddenly you loose a segment of your potential customers.
Again I don't know, but to me it seems the liner lock is probably the easiest/least expensive to make...even when done correctly I think this is a step in the wrong direction.
However, you do have to make enough sales to stay afloat. Hopefully an upgraded model with a better lock will be in the future.
I'm betting Doc will be buying one. I'll have to wait on his conclusions before I pull the trigger. Until then, I'm gonna go caress my Ronins. :eek: :D
I just ran across this knife--and from there this stuff on Spyderco forum. I will buy one of these when they come out. Snody and Janich, who collaborated on the design that became the Yojimbo, Snody's custom Hybrid, and the Benchmade 425 Gravitator did some really nice work here. I have a Yojimbo and the Benchmade 425. Both are outstanding knives. From an ergonomics standpoint, the tapering handle is great. The aggressive wharncliffe blade on these knives is very good for certain applications. The tapered butt of the handle provides an oustanding focused striking point. In the case of the Benchmades, the titanium frame is exposed in the butt and may serve reasonably well as a glass breaker--though not so well as those dedicated knives with a sharp point on the handle (like the Assist).
Bringing all of this down market in terms of materials is probably a good business decision. That said, a knife with an MSRP of $99, like this one, will have a street price of $65-$75 I would imagine. The low end Blackhawk line seens designed to appeal to a crowd of knife buyers who like 'tactical' designs but are not at the price point where they will/can pay for better knives.
For any applications--including training for MBC--you would do better to pay more $ and reduce the risk of cutting your own fingers off if the lock fails. I have one fairly high end Benchmade (the Apparition) which cannot sustain even modest spine whacks / pressure and I never use it anymore. It cost me $100 but my fingers are worth more than that :) It is almost better to have a non-locking knife and know it ahead of time.
wescobts wrote:Is the primary use of a Wharncliff blades SD ?
Well I don't know if it's primary use is SD but it sure works well in that capacity...But I have a carpenter friend who uses his for everything....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
stonyman wrote:I am put off by liners also, but after handling one of BH Crucible II folders......I was baffled at how thick and sturdy that liner lock was. If this new Wharnie has a similar liner then it should be good to go. We will see.
Just had to bump this thread as I'm seriously doing research for my X'mas gift knife :D I am a fan of wharnies big time!
Once upon a time I silently championed the BHB Crucible over at BF. The design (as well as the designer), the ergos and being one of the few, IMHO, WELL-MADE liner locks on a production knife I've ever handled. It wouldn't be surprising though to translate it with the Be Wharned as well.
To any owners out there, how has it been holding up? TIA.
Sorry all, but i just dont get it. Whats so good about wharnies? I dont have one, and never tried one, and no ones ever had one that i know so im kinda out of the wharnie loop. What do you use this design for?
The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of meeting deadlines is forgotten.
_____________________________________________
My Dream Knife: Paramilitary with FFG H1. GITD G10.
Donovan808 wrote:Sorry all, but i just dont get it. Whats so good about wharnies? I dont have one, and never tried one, and no ones ever had one that i know so im kinda out of the wharnie loop. What do you use this design for?
Here is a reply with some explaination from MJ himself reposted from another thread, understand this is about the Ronin, but explains the benefits of the wharnie design....Doc :D
Thanks for your post.
I developed the Ronin design as a folder first, after doing some ballistic cutting experiments with different styles of blades. My tests revealed that the most efficient cutting weapons are those that take the cutting edge all the way to the point and apply pressure into the cut throughout the entire cutting stroke. Conventional fighting knife design dictates that the blade have a curve or “belly” to the cutting edge to allow it to cut and slash effectively. However, when held in a natural grip and wielded in a cutting motion, most knives of this type reach a point in their arc of travel where the angle of the cutting edge and the arc of the arm run parallel. At this point, the knife no longer applies pressure into the target being cut and in many cases actually pushes the target away from the cutting edge.
Conversely, the straight cutting edge of the Ronin applies constant cutting pressure into the target and typically cuts at least ¾-inch deeper than traditional blade designs of comparable length. The chisel edge created by the single hollow grind further enhances the Ronin’s cutting power by creating superior edge geometry that cuts with almost no drag.
The tapered back of the blade meets the tip to form an extremely sharp point that also outperforms traditional designs. As the point is thrust into a target, the back of the blade acts as a ramp, pushing the cutting edge downward. This downward force, combined with the shearing cutting motion of the edge enables the Ronin to penetrate deeply with very little effort.
The handle of the Ronin is tapered toward the butt like many traditional Japanese blades. This taper naturally fits the “cone” formed by the last three fingers of the hand and anchors the handle firmly to the meaty portion of the palm. The single finger groove for the index finger and low positioning of the cutting edge create a very functional guard that makes it impossible for the hand to slide forward onto the blade. It also puts the cutting edge in line with the knuckles of the fingers, making it less likely that the hand will impact before the edge, minimizing the force of the cut.
The grooved area on the back of the Ronin’s blade provides a solid purchase that encourages the user to extend the thumb forward into a Filipino grip. In this position, the blade becomes a natural extension of the thumb and can be employed with great power and almost instinctive control.
Although I made a working liner-lock prototype of the Ronin and pitched it to a number of knife companies, it wasn't until Mike Snody asked me for my input on a neck knife design that it really took off. I adapted the folder design to a fixed blade, sent the drawing to Mike, and he made it a reality.
I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for asking.
Stay safe,
original post by Michael Janich
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Haha, I believe he means more in a day-to-day sense... not just slashing and stabbing people, Doc. But yea... :p
It's easy to sharpen, the tip is good for delicate work, and to me, it's just really predictable. Any other reasons, guys? I know you have something to say about EDC uses, Doc. :D
"I ain't looking for confusion, but it tends to follow me."
E4 white, E4 waved SE, Caspian Salt, Crossbill, Mule, white Dragonfly, Boker CLB Desert Subcom, BM Blackwood mini Skirmish,
Dr. Snubnose wrote:Here is a reply with some explaination from MJ himself reposted from another thread, understand this is about the Ronin, but explains the benefits of the wharnie design....Doc :D
Thanks for your post.
I developed the Ronin design as a folder first, after doing some ballistic cutting experiments with different styles of blades. My tests revealed that the most efficient cutting weapons are those that take the cutting edge all the way to the point and apply pressure into the cut throughout the entire cutting stroke. Conventional fighting knife design dictates that the blade have a curve or “belly” to the cutting edge to allow it to cut and slash effectively. However, when held in a natural grip and wielded in a cutting motion, most knives of this type reach a point in their arc of travel where the angle of the cutting edge and the arc of the arm run parallel. At this point, the knife no longer applies pressure into the target being cut and in many cases actually pushes the target away from the cutting edge.
Conversely, the straight cutting edge of the Ronin applies constant cutting pressure into the target and typically cuts at least ¾-inch deeper than traditional blade designs of comparable length. The chisel edge created by the single hollow grind further enhances the Ronin’s cutting power by creating superior edge geometry that cuts with almost no drag.
The tapered back of the blade meets the tip to form an extremely sharp point that also outperforms traditional designs. As the point is thrust into a target, the back of the blade acts as a ramp, pushing the cutting edge downward. This downward force, combined with the shearing cutting motion of the edge enables the Ronin to penetrate deeply with very little effort.
The handle of the Ronin is tapered toward the butt like many traditional Japanese blades. This taper naturally fits the “cone” formed by the last three fingers of the hand and anchors the handle firmly to the meaty portion of the palm. The single finger groove for the index finger and low positioning of the cutting edge create a very functional guard that makes it impossible for the hand to slide forward onto the blade. It also puts the cutting edge in line with the knuckles of the fingers, making it less likely that the hand will impact before the edge, minimizing the force of the cut.
The grooved area on the back of the Ronin’s blade provides a solid purchase that encourages the user to extend the thumb forward into a Filipino grip. In this position, the blade becomes a natural extension of the thumb and can be employed with great power and almost instinctive control.
Although I made a working liner-lock prototype of the Ronin and pitched it to a number of knife companies, it wasn't until Mike Snody asked me for my input on a neck knife design that it really took off. I adapted the folder design to a fixed blade, sent the drawing to Mike, and he made it a reality.
I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for asking.
Stay safe,
original post by Michael Janich
The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of meeting deadlines is forgotten.
_____________________________________________
My Dream Knife: Paramilitary with FFG H1. GITD G10.
Dr. Snubnose wrote:Yeah Liner Lock is a bummer.....Yojimbo with a liner Lock...I might get one just for the heck of it...but I'm not that happy about the lock...then there is always my Ronin ....Doc :D
I have decided to limit my liner locks to left front pocket carry and that works for me. Re-pocketing an open liner lock is safer when I get to safely grasp the blade lefty and flip the body with the right hand to close the knife. Then I put away the knife without ever having to put a body part into the blade path. This is not a martial move and just a way to keep my body parts out of the blade path when closing liner locks. This is most useful at work where I carry a box cutter on the right side but still need a real knife from time to time.
Edit: This is hard to explain but I think I meant "keeps my dominant right hand from being both the unlocker and catcher of the blade". Left grasps the blade safely and right flips the handle toward the firmly controlled blade.
I just got around to testing the Ronin on Roast Round yesterday. The Roast measured 5 1/2" round by 9" Long. The Roast was left in it's original package and like in previous tests was wrapped in an additional 4 layers of saran wrap to simulate the resistence of skin. The results were as follows:
Test #1: A quick Downward Cut into the meat (thumb on spine of blade) opened up the meat to a depth of 3 1/4". In Test #2 a Horizontal Slash from right to left in Sabre Grip opened the meat up to a depth of 3 1/2". Test#3, The Stab and Cut Downwards (till Resistence was felt) opening the meat to a depth of 3 1/2" for a measured distance of 7 1/4" Long.
Some afterthoughts and comments:
Having done this test previously with Mr. Janich's Yojimbo I was prepared to experience similiar results because of the blade design. This was the case indeed as the Yojimbo in the same tests did quite well. Yojimbo Test Results, from previous test posted here for comparrison Test# 1, 3 3/4" Test #2, 3 1/2" and Test # 3, 3 1/2" distance 9" long. (for more details see prevous meat posts)
On the quick downward cut I noticed that most of the cutting was being done by the last inch of the Ronin's blade. In the Horizontal slash more of the blade came in contact with the meat allowing for deeper penetration. One of my concerns before the tests began was would the knife remain stable in the hand during the cuts and slashes. I felt that the knife might slip or wobble in the hand during heavy blows as the handle of the Ronin is much shorter than the very stable Yojimbo with it's unique handle design. Much to my delight the knife felt strong, solid and very stable in the hand during the test. It neither slipped or wobbled in the hand. I sliced through the meat with no resistence felt on the slashes. Once again the blade design seems to
be very effective for what it is intended for. The Micarta Handle makes this Yojimbo like sheath knife very stylish, and the finger groove worked very well for positioning the knife in hand. The holes in the handle not only reduces the weight of the knife allowing it to make fast and furious cuts and slashes but it also seem to help secure the Ronin in the hand as the fingers pressed into the little holes on a tight clenched grip. In my book you can't go wrong with either the Ronin or Yojimbo for SD carry... Two sharp slicers for sure...Doc
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Last edited by Dr. Snubnose; 06-19-2005 at 05:27 PM.
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
This is also an old post by Michael Janich in reponse to my Meat testing...it gives a more detailed explaination from Michael to how the wharncliffe blade design does it's majic:
First of all, thanks to Dr. Snubnose for his testing efforts and for sharing his results. His tests are great empirical stuff that is much more valuable than the speculation and conjecture that often pollutes Internet forums.
My early understanding of edge geometry was based on what I had read in books and magazines. Most of that stated that a good fighting knife had to have a lot of belly to cut effectively, the point had to be close to the centerline of the knife for energy transfer during a thrust, and straight edges tended to tear rather than cut. I believed all that and accepted it for a long time (If you look at my MOD Tempest design, you'll see that it's got considerable belly to the edge).
When Mike Snody asked me to design the "ultimate neck knife" (his words, not mine), I decided to start from scratch and do the empirical testing needed to determine the best blade shape for a small, concealable knife. I spent a long time (not to mention a lot of pork roasts, old jeans, floating pool noodles, water-soaked grass mats, and even leather jackets) doing actual live blade cutting. Some of the cuts were snap cuts -- which require good distance appreciation and accuracy -- and some of them were the locked-wrist follow-through cuts I prefer.
What I learned was that the arc of motion of the cutting edge, as well as the point of impact on the length of the edge, are huge determining factors in cutting performance. The traditional thought process -- lots of belly and snap cuts -- works very well, PROVIDED YOUR DISTANCE IS CORRECT AND YOUR EDGE STRIKES THE TARGET WITH THE BELLY. If it does, the belly creates a shearing cut until it reaches the tip of the knife.
If you hit short with a snap cut, you either get a shallow chopping cut or you actually push the material away from the edge and get a dent rather than a cut. If you hit short with a locked-wrist, follow-through cut, you get a chopping blow that doesn't do much with a light blade. If you hit at too long a range, the arc of the belly of the edge and the arc of travel of your arm typically run parallel and you get a shallow, superficial cut.
With a straight edge like the Ronin or Yojimbo, it's a different story. If you hit short on a snap cut, NO MATTER WHERE YOU HIT ON THE STRAIGHT EDGE, THE ENERGY TRANSFER TO THE TARGET IS THE SAME. If you hit with the tip (as Doc probably did in his tests), the energy transfer buries the tip deeply, cutting like a hawkbill, but without the danger of snagging. THE FACT THAT THE CUTTING EDGE LEADS THE CUT, THE FULL FLAT GRIND PARTS THE MATERIAL WITH MINIMAL DRAG, AND THAT THERE IS VERY LITTLE BLADE BEHIND THE LEADING PORTION OF THE BLADE EDGE TO CREATE DRAG CREATES THE SENSATION OF EFFORTLESS CUTTING (which Doc also referred to). MOST IMPORTANTLY, NO MATTER WHERE YOU HIT WITH THE EDGE, YOU GET A FULL TRANSFER OF ENERGY INTO THE TARGET, THE BLADE CUTS ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP, AND THE TIP CREATES A LONGER CUTTING RADIUS THAN A BLADE WITH BELLY.
If you use a locked-wrist follow-through cut, the results are even more dramatic because you start at the heel of the blade and draw the full length of the edge through the cut in an incredibly effective slicing action.
The effectiveness of the straight edge is not a new thing to edged weapons. The scramasax was basically a straight edge (or close to it), as was the Filipino kampilan. Several years ago, James Keating, still one of the preeminent edged-weapons tacticians of modern times, designed a knife called the "Straight Shot" (if memory serves me correctly) that also featured a long, straight primary cutting edge. For all the Bowie fans out there, a back cut with a straight false edge is also the functional equivalent of a cut with the primary edge of a wharncliffe blade. As such, I didn't invent this stuff, I simply took the time to quantify and understand it.
A lot of folks have taken shots at the Yojimbo and Ronin as ugly knives with supposedly fragile tips. However, once most people actually see one cut -- or better yet, do some cutting themselves -- they usually change their minds pretty quickly.
For the record, when Mike Snody first saw the Ronin (which I designed in response to his request for the ultimate neck knife), he didn't want to make it. To his credit, though, before dismissing it, he ground one and actually started cutting with it. Shortly thereafter, he called me on the phone and described the cutting performance of the knife in one word: evil. (Actually, it was two words: f*&$ing evil.) Later, while reaching for something in his shop, a partially finished Ronin blade "bit" him. He said he'd never been cut so badly, so easily. He also said that working on the custom Ronins and the Yojimbo prototype changed his thoughts on knifemaking forever. From the looks of the Benchmade Gravitator (which he was both ethical and kind enough to show me in the prototype stage), I'd say he was telling the truth...
I hope this helps shed some light on the reason I'm a wharncliffe fan. I like stuff that works.
Stay safe,
__________________
mike j
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
