should spyderco outsource to China?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Shike
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#21

Post by Shike »

Bolstermanic wrote:I'm an old guy, too, into knives since before time, and I don't recall anybody saying that. The Japanese were always regarded as having a long tradition of excellence in swords and edged weapons.

I think you're arguing that the Chinese have the potential to make top quality knives. OK, no argument there, ANY nation has the potential, but I'm more interested in the "here and now" and proven track records of quality.

With all due respect, I guess we have a different recall of things past. I remember that Japanese made products were always regarded as junk be it cars or knives. Many of those precious swords have been destroyed by people who thought they were junk. I had one such item! Well........They proved us wrong didn't they?


Yes here and now they can make it , IMO. We are talking about a nation with a history of incredible craftmanship since before we knew the word existed. Pay them the dollars that the Japanese get and they will do it. Do I want them to? I don't know....but it would not be for those reasons. And believe me I hear you. I want the best made product for my $$$ as much as the next guy.
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bluemist
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#22

Post by bluemist »

Agent Starling wrote: Just my $0.02...with inflation, probably worth a fraction of that. ;) :)

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What are you talking about? Inflation? Everything is fine, go back to sleep.
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telemeister
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#23

Post by telemeister »

Hi there,

I don't want to post a really long reply to this, but, having dealt a lot with China and Chinese businesses, I would say that Spyderco should definitely not outsource their range. That being said, the making of models like the Tenacious (which gets high praise - as I understand it) is sound - a knife designed specifically to be made to that particular standard.

That's all folks!
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#24

Post by Grey Mullet »

I like the idea of a lower cost Spyderco from China. I don't think there is any chance of Spyderco going all Chinese all the time. That would make me feel like the guy on the Titanic who said "I asked for ice, but this is ridiculous."
:)
rifle
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#25

Post by rifle »

Shike wrote:But what happens when a company starts to loose customers because they feel the quality is not there?
I think that the quality and direction of any company will speak for itself. The Spyderco line has always been of good quality. I think that we as consumers and Spyderco as a manufacturer will determine the right balance. I would base my purchases on value for my buck like everyone else does.
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#26

Post by guntotin_fool »

I think sometimes the manufacturers know a lot more than the buyers at the major big box shops. Sal, just say no, offer them "byrd by spyderco" but keep the Syderco label as high end as you can.

I think that just because the buyer thinks no one will spend 40 or 50 or more on a pocket knife does not mean that they are right. Gander has had good success selling your brand for years. And if you can not get a product into their hands at the price they want, is it worth creating an inferior product to meet their needs? No.
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The Deacon
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#27

Post by The Deacon »

Kind of an odd question Allen, considering that 1989, the year before Spyderco's first US built model was introduced was the last time all Spyderco's models were produced in a single country.
Bolstermanic wrote:I'm an old guy, too, into knives since before time, and I don't recall anybody saying that. The Japanese were always regarded as having a long tradition of excellence in swords and edged weapons.

I think you're arguing that the Chinese have the potential to make top quality knives. OK, no argument there, ANY nation has the potential, but I'm more interested in the "here and now" and proven track records of quality.

Well, you could argue it already has been. The Tenacious uses a linerlock (the least expensive type of lock, with an inconsistent reputation overall) and 8Cr13MoV steel (a lower graded steel in Spyderco's current lineup) and posters to this thread have already commented that the Tenacious has lower fit and finish overall. The Tenacious was designed to be inexpensive, and competitive with other inexpensive knives; Sal himself says as much. When you design for low cost, more compromises are inevitable.

Again, if Chinese-made is top quality, why isn't Spyderco using China to make its best, most expensive knives?
My recollection is more like Shike's. Sure, there was an acknowledgment that "in the old days" the Japanese made some darn fine swords. But the general consensus was that anything and everything coming out of post war Japan was crap.

As for the liner lock, you may be right, but consider some of the highly regarded Spyderco knives, past and present, that use it - the three Terzuolas, the Swiss made CF Walker, and the Military, to name a few.

As for the rest, I look at the Tenacious as an attempt by Spyderco to break into a segment of the market that it now does not have a share of. A product "good enough" to wear the Spyderco name, rather than being consigned to the Byrd line, yet priced inexpensively enough and available in large enough quantity to be attractive to the large chain stores. Since volume production
requires a steady and plentiful supply of steel and 8Cr13MoV is the best that's locally available, it was the obvious choice for the Tenacious. I hope it works for them. If it does, it will provide a steady income stream, have minimal impact on the sale of the rest of Spyderco's models, and create even more name recognition for the brand.

Have to wonder if there is still anyone too naive to realize that, if it's under five years old, a fair percentage of their Toyota, Nikon, Sony, Yamaha, or other Japanese brand item was actually made in China?
Paul
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Agent Starling
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#28

Post by Agent Starling »

bluemist wrote:What are you talking about? Inflation? Everything is fine, go back to sleep.
what are YOU talking about......??? :rolleyes:

(this is a rhetorical question BTW...you don't have to respond.)

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#29

Post by yablanowitz »

Thank you Paul, I was wondering if anyone remembered Sal posting that 8Cr13MoV was the best steel available in China at this time, which explains all by itself "...if Chinese-made is top quality, why isn't Spyderco using China to make its best, most expensive knives?"

If Sal can get the Tenacious into Wal-Mart and sell a billion of them at a dollar profit each, just think about all the high end models that could finance! ;)
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
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#30

Post by araneae »

The Deacon wrote: As for the liner lock, you may be right, but consider some of the highly regarded Spyderco knives, past and present, that use it - the three Terzuolas, the Swiss made CF Walker, and the Military, to name a few.

As for the rest, I look at the Tenacious as an attempt by Spyderco to break into a segment of the market that it now does not have a share of. A product "good enough" to wear the Spyderco name, rather than being consigned to the Byrd line, yet priced inexpensively enough and available in large enough quantity to be attractive to the large chain stores. Since volume production
requires a steady and plentiful supply of steel and 8Cr13MoV is the best that's locally available, it was the obvious choice for the Tenacious. I hope it works for them. If it does, it will provide a steady income stream, have minimal impact on the sale of the rest of Spyderco's models, and create even more name recognition for the brand.

Have to wonder if there is still anyone too naive to realize that, if it's under five years old, a fair percentage of their Toyota, Nikon, Sony, Yamaha, or other Japanese brand item was actually made in China?
Haven't we done this thread before?
I have to agree with Deacon here. Spyderco is doing what they believe they need to do to stay competitive. Lots of people love linerlocks, if they didn't there wouldn't be so many out there. We may prefer lockbacks, but the afi's aren't the only folks to cater to. As far as choosing to start with a low end model, it only makes sense. Can you imagine the stink some would create over a $150 China model?
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#31

Post by araneae »

Bolstermanic wrote: The other fatuous argument that you see in support of cheap knives is the victo-cratic "the poor people can afford them" argument. I don't buy the argument that Americans are going without knives because they can't afford them, and therefore it's morally correct to make cheaper and cheaper knives. That argument makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
Wanna trade budgets? :p

I would have more knives if I could afford them. Not that I'm going without...
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
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Nuff Said

#32

Post by Manix Guy 2 »

Old News to me , well said again by Taz . MG2
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#33

Post by phoneman01 »

No! How much do you think it cost to make that knife? Consider that the knife was most likely made on some metal manufacturing campus were the employees live and have to work 12hrs or more a day. The average wage is probably around $2.00 a day, Then out of that, room board and health are deducted. :mad:
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#34

Post by phoneman01 »

Oh, also, hello everyone!!
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#35

Post by flyguy »

Just curious if the original poster did a search on the topic? This topic has been discussed before... Very few people are pro-outsourcing to China.

I admit that I don't pay close attention where things are made...when I buy every day products. However, given a choice, I would rather not buy from China.

I do hope that the Chinese made Spydercos never come close to the quality of steel or craftsmenship as American, Japanese, or European. Nothing against the people of China.
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bluemist
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#36

Post by bluemist »

The lady at the knife store said she is getting a lot of returns on the Byrd models, she said people expect spyderco quality but at the same time are abusing them becasue they are cheap. I dunno if I believe her. "A lot" might be 2.

we should let this thread die before we get thwacked because the subject is nearly impossible to debate w/o getting into a political discussion
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Michael Cook
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#37

Post by Michael Cook »

:spyder: I'm very pleased with my Tenacious. It's a well made well built knife. :spyder:
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ken
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#38

Post by ken »

Hello Allen-

To answer your ? NO!

There is a "hole" lot more than a quality issue here.

It's hard to say anything more without making some political statement.

So let me ask you this- Why China? Are companies doing this to stay competitive or is it just to make more $ ?


It's just bad for US-A
ken
ken
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Bolster
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#39

Post by Bolster »

bluemist wrote:...we should let this thread die before we get thwacked...
BEFORE we get thwacked? I already got thwacked! But the collective wisdom of this forum set me straight, and I thank you all for it. Here's what I learned:

- My arguments are flawed, because I arrived at the wrong conclusions...I should start from the correct conclusions and argue backwards for there. I'm an idiot!

- You can get lower priced items without compromise! (Where is my $20 Yojimbo?)

- Linerlocks are awesome locks, seldom ever known to fail! (In that case, I don't know what caused this scar across four of my fingers).

- My memories of the 1960s were delusional, because I remember lusting after high quality Japanese products! (I still want that 35mm Canon rangefinder, regardless).

- That I'm rich, because I don't think a $40 knife is too expensive!

- That the future potential to create high quality products is much more important than a past record of it!

Well, there you have it. I'm a fool. I do feel better, having admitted it. Thank you, and good night.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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jaislandboy
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#40

Post by jaislandboy »

Bolstermanic wrote:I'm an old guy, too, into knives since before time, and I don't recall anybody saying that. The Japanese were always regarded as having a long tradition of excellence in swords and edged weapons.

I think you're arguing that the Chinese have the potential to make top quality knives. OK, no argument there, ANY nation has the potential, but I'm more interested in the "here and now" and proven track records of quality.



Well, you could argue it already has been. The Tenacious uses a linerlock (the least expensive type of lock, with an inconsistent reputation overall) and 8Cr13MoV steel (a lower graded steel in Spyderco's current lineup) and posters to this thread have already commented that the Tenacious has lower fit and finish overall. The Tenacious was designed to be inexpensive, and competitive with other inexpensive knives; Sal himself says as much. When you design for low cost, more compromises are inevitable.

Again, if Chinese-made is top quality, why isn't Spyderco using China to make its best, most expensive knives?
So Bolstermanic, by your reasoning, why does this Military use a linerlock?
http://www.newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=44770
Why do so many knifenuts clamor on this forum and Bladeforums praise the Military? So you scoff the 8Cr13MoV steel .... does the SekiCity produced AUS8 FRN Dragonfly get your juices flowing instead? With the average cost of newer Spyderco clipits coming out being at least $100 USD....see here:
http://www.spydercovt.com/
I don't see Golden slowing down production of quality knives at these higher pricepoints.....
I guess time will tell after enough people (who are Unbiased) use and test the Tenacious whether or not the product is good or "a cheap import" like you seem to imply about this knife.... on this forum or over on Bladeforums you can hear testimonials from other folks (other than me) who can post positive reviews of the Tenacious..... :rolleyes:
To each his own, its obvious where you stand about this knife....you've made that abundantly clear in your posts..... thanks, I understand and respect your decision :)
I've bought one / tested it and while I can afford more $$$$ clipits like the Stretch2, etc...... I can honestly say the Tenacious is an Awesome knife in league with many others knives (made elsewhere including Japan) that cost up to $100 ....easily ;) But don't misunderstand me, i'm not big on debate/and all this "mental masturbation" and I don't enjoy coming to Spydercoforums to talk and read about politics all the time....I guess that's why BF has a Political Arena....
So I'll try to abstain from further posting in this thread and sit back and read you continue to Bash Spyderco about the Tenacious (some more).
brian
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