Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[James Y]

Thanks a lot for your comments and sharing your experiences, Nick.

I haven't personally noticed any difference in rigidity in the hand position I use in axe hand strikes and the thumb out way of doing it. I've also seen some modern combatives instructors have their fingers fully extended straight out, and splayed apart. Which I really do not understand. That's just begging for finger injuries. For some, it appears like they're doing it to look stylish.

I also see the people doing the fingers splayed out when doing Muay Thai elbows. When doing elbow strikes, I keep the fingers of the striking side hand in a half-closed position, like a partly-closed fist. This habd shape is more compact when elbowing and again, the fingers are far less likely to be snagged, caught, or smashed when elbowing.

When training my personal self-defense material (which is mostly what I train now), I change or remove anything that is done for style points, or to "look more cool." Even some people whose emphasis is on practicality sometimes do combative strikes with (apparently) some subconscious awareness of the appearance of their strikes. My only emphasis regarding what I train for SD is that it potentially maximizes effect while minimizing risk of injury to self. Nothing is foolproof, but I am mindful in how I train so that it will be as natural as possible and not require much thought in real life.



As far emphasizing fewer things, Geoff Thompson emphasized mainly one technique in most of the 300+
fights he won as a doorman (bouncer) in the dangerous clubs in Coventry, England, during the violent years of the '80s and '90s. That one technique was a straight (or slightly hooked) right punch to the chin or jaw, thrown preemptively, when violence was imminent. Supposedly, however almost he said he almost never hurt his hand during that time. Maybe he hurt it once or twice during that time. Some people can get away with bare-fisted head punches on the street, but it's still more risky, and for pure SD, I prefer palm heel and blade of hand. They're also more unexpected than closed-fist punches, and the delivery is different.

I also like the tiger claw to the eyes, and hammer fists. But you still must be cognizant of how you land hammer fists. Some people have broken the base knuckle of their pinky finger from not landing hammer fists fully on the fleshy edge of hand, the same striking surface used in axe hands. Your elbow position relative to the target angle is vital when using hammer fists, to properly strike with the fleshy edge of the hand (or the edge of the forearm above it, if the target is closer).

Jim

[James Y]

I like that you mention that forms are usefull, Jim.

I am a young man, but I have some difficult health problems that can make frequent training and exercise much more difficult to maintain than someone who is healthy. Me and my older brother are learning some mobility drills from Systema that are very low impact, but still help develop flexability, some strength, and awareness of your body. Perhaps most importantly it is easy enough to do every day, which means I can actually practice enough to gain some benefit without hurting my overall health. I think these drills have some similarity in benefit to forms.

I'm sorry to hear about your health challenges, Scandi Grind. Practice at your own pace. Your health is priceless. You do whatever you can, and you will develop and achieve your goals.

IMO, forms, if practiced correctly, discipline you to become simultaneously cognizant of every part of your body, from your toes to your fingers to your head. Some combat sports people will say it's a waste of time, and that you can develop that same type of whole-body awareness doing combat drills and sparring. But IMO, it's different.

Also, besides having competed in semi and full-contact sparring competitions, some of my more nerve-wracking experiences were giving forms demonstrations in front of legitimate masters, at "masters exhibitions." Where if you messed up, you would make not only yourself, but your teacher lose face. During the years I taught my own students, I especially had to be virtually flawless in my forms when giving and leading our school demonstrations. You had to be mentally dialed in, in a way that was very different from sparring.

Art-wise, it's like the 4 wheels of a vehicle: 1) Basic training and conditioning; 2) Application practice, 3) Fighting, and 4) Form. I could add Self-Defense as a 5th aspect, because IMO, most of the best things in actual SD are what are not allowed in sparring and competition.

Nothing is prohibited in sparring or sport fighting for not being effective. On the contrary, they are banned because they are TOO effective, and too easy to cause serious injury with.

Jim

[James Y]

The Most Crazy Fight in a Supermarket / Nick Drossos



Jim

[Scandi Grind]

Thanks for the encouragement, Jim, I appreciate it. So in regards to forms, would you say they are difficult to learn to do properly? I don't have any access to in person training, and I had heard somewhere that Tai Chi movements for example are hard to do properly without in person training. I'm trying to figure out if it might be worth the time looking into it, I might either way just out of curiosity, but I don't know whether to expect to get any benefit out of watching videos.

And on a totally different subject, I am on the search for what to carry as a defensive blade, in my case a fixed blade is permissible. I have asked about this before, and I had gotten some useful suggestions. At this point I am thinking that a wharncliffe would be a good idea, but for some reason I keep looking at karambits. I know that karambits can certainly be effective in the right hands, but I feel like they are not the most practical option in general. It just seems much more limited than a typical blade. I have also looked a little at Pikal style blades, but they seem even more limited than karambits. So basically I am expecting everyone to help me realize I should not be looking into karambits, unless by some chance my logic is wrong this time and my odd attraction to a karambit happens to be right?

[James Y]

Thanks for the encouragement, Jim, I appreciate it. So in regards to forms, would you say they are difficult to learn to do properly? I don't have any access to in person training, and I had heard somewhere that Tai Chi movements for example are hard to do properly without in person training. I'm trying to figure out if it might be worth the time looking into it, I might either way just out of curiosity, but I don't know whether to expect to get any benefit out of watching videos.

And on a totally different subject, I am on the search for what to carry as a defensive blade, in my case a fixed blade is permissible. I have asked about this before, and I had gotten some useful suggestions. At this point I am thinking that a wharncliffe would be a good idea, but for some reason I keep looking at karambits. I know that karambits can certainly be effective in the right hands, but I feel like they are not the most practical option in general. It just seems much more limited than a typical blade. I have also looked a little at Pikal style blades, but they seem even more limited than karambits. So basically I am expecting everyone to help me realize I should not be looking into karambits, unless by some chance my logic is wrong this time and my odd attraction to a karambit happens to be right?

Hi, Scandi Grind.

IMO, it's best to find a good teacher and learn in person. Videos are only 2-dimensional media, and do not convey the *energy* within the movements. One can learn (say, a form, a principle, a type of power generation, a fighting application, etc ) if he or she already has a solid base in the art. Because there is more to a form than only a set of movements, and that is hard to convey through a video. Even if someone is naturally a movement genius and can replicate all the moves, it'll be empty. If that makes any sense.

The important thing is to find not only a good practitioner, but one who also knows how to teach properly. And a lot of what is proper for you will be what YOU want to get out of it.

As for what knife to carry for self-defense, there are others here who are better qualified to answer that question.

Jim

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I have heard the claim made by martial arts people over the years that when so and so gets a black belt in so and so martial art, they have to "register their body" as a deadly weapon, and/or that the law enforcement authorities and legal authorities actually consider that black belt person more responsible in the event of a physical altercation, than say a non black belt. Is this true or just urban legend?

[Naperville]

I have heard the claim made by martial arts people over the years that when so and so gets a black belt in so and so martial art, they have to "register their body" as a deadly weapon, and/or that the law enforcement authorities and legal authorities actually consider that black belt person more responsible in the event of a physical altercation, than say a non black belt. Is this true or just urban legend?

NOPE you don't have to register that I know of, but they will get you in court if they ever find out. The penalty will be more severe.

Black belts and graduations don't mean anything to most people. Many thousands of people get black belts every year. Ever get invited to a black belt graduation? Were there hundreds or thousands of people there?

I researched and chose the martial arts that I studied, and got what I could out of them in around one year....usually the best things they teach they are going to teach right away. I managed to take lessons for up to a year or more in a dozen martial arts. It's supposed to be fun, exciting, life changing, so make it so!

[James Y]

I have heard the claim made by martial arts people over the years that when so and so gets a black belt in so and so martial art, they have to "register their body" as a deadly weapon, and/or that the law enforcement authorities and legal authorities actually consider that black belt person more responsible in the event of a physical altercation, than say a non black belt. Is this true or just urban legend?

Like Naperville said, NO.

However, I will point out that it might be taken into consideration when it comes to a professional combat sports athlete, like if a pro boxer or a pro MMA fighter beat someone up who is not a fighter in a street fight. It MIGHT, because some people in the "justice" system may consider a pro fighter to be a weapon under the law.

As for black belts, no. Especially nowadays, when some arts/schools hand out belt rankings (including black belts) like Skittles at Halloween. There was a time when having a black belt meant something (and in some arts it still does). But nowadays, there are many black belts with very poor basics. If your foundation is weak, then everything is weak.

Jim

[VashHash]

If your foundation is weak you need more horse stance.

[Naperville]

Jim is 100% right.

Court can be very tricky and it depends on what you are in trouble for. If it is a huge case expect them to go back a decade or more and really investigate you. If you really injured someone and have a black belt, are a professional boxer or a bodyguard you need to hire a really good attorney.

[James Y]

If your foundation is weak you need more horse stance.

That was traditionally the base, but there's more than horse stance (including bow-and-arrow stance, cat stance, twist stance, single leg stance, and kneeling stance, etc.). That is, if the specific art includes those stances. My first Mantis sifu in Taiwan said his entire first year of training as a live-in student (back in Shandong Province in China in the 1920s) consisted of only stance practice, besides doing chores (like cleaning, laundry, cooking) for his teacher.

When my Choy Lee Fut sifu began training in CLF in the early 1960s, they spent 90 minutes doing Ng Lun Ma (5 Wheel Horse), a form consisting of moving into the basic stances, holding them, then moving to the next, in a repetitious manner. They spent the entire 90 minutes doing the form from start to finish only one time.

My stance training was never that severe. However, I have been required to hold a single deep stance for as long as 40 or more minutes, at the beginning of practice. That was killer.

I seriously doubt that more than a miniscule percentage of the current generation, and even fewer in the States, would be able to tolerate that kind of painful and tedious basic development.

But there are many other aspects to developing basic skills than just stance work. The general level of basics in many martial arts nowadays is far below the levels seen even back in the '70s and '80s.

I didn't watch much of the Olympics (it sucks now), but I did catch some of the Olympic Tae Kwon Do on YouTube, for the heck of it. I was shocked at what it has become. I won't go into detail; you can look up the videos for yourself, if you want.

IMO, it's the quality of one's basic development and basic skills that helps create strong will power, and builds a foundation that will outlast youth and athletic peak abilities, which can often disguise the lack of a strong base when you are still young.

Jim

[Co Pilot]

Thanks a lot for your comments and sharing your experiences, Nick.

I haven't personally noticed any difference in rigidity in the hand position I use in axe hand strikes and the thumb out way of doing it. I've also seen some modern combatives instructors have their fingers fully extended straight out, and splayed apart. Which I really do not understand. That's just begging for finger injuries. For some, it appears like they're doing it to look stylish.

I also see the people doing the fingers splayed out when doing Muay Thai elbows. When doing elbow strikes, I keep the fingers of the striking side hand in a half-closed position, like a partly-closed fist. This habd shape is more compact when elbowing and again, the fingers are far less likely to be snagged, caught, or smashed when elbowing.

When training my personal self-defense material (which is mostly what I train now), I change or remove anything that is done for style points, or to "look more cool." Even some people whose emphasis is on practicality sometimes do combative strikes with (apparently) some subconscious awareness of the appearance of their strikes. My only emphasis regarding what I train for SD is that it potentially maximizes effect while minimizing risk of injury to self. Nothing is foolproof, but I am mindful in how I train so that it will be as natural as possible and not require much thought in real life.



As far emphasizing fewer things, Geoff Thompson emphasized mainly one technique in most of the 300+
fights he won as a doorman (bouncer) in the dangerous clubs in Coventry, England, during the violent years of the '80s and '90s. That one technique was a straight (or slightly hooked) right punch to the chin or jaw, thrown preemptively, when violence was imminent. Supposedly, however almost he said he almost never hurt his hand during that time. Maybe he hurt it once or twice during that time. Some people can get away with bare-fisted head punches on the street, but it's still more risky, and for pure SD, I prefer palm heel and blade of hand. They're also more unexpected than closed-fist punches, and the delivery is different.

I also like the tiger claw to the eyes, and hammer fists. But you still must be cognizant of how you land hammer fists. Some people have broken the base knuckle of their pinky finger from not landing hammer fists fully on the fleshy edge of hand, the same striking surface used in axe hands. Your elbow position relative to the target angle is vital when using hammer fists, to properly strike with the fleshy edge of the hand (or the edge of the forearm above it, if the target is closer).

Jim

Jim,
Agree completely on not splaying your fingers and the finger positioning on other strikes.

I would say Morrison's main reason for success, taking NOTHING away from him or his skill and knowledge, which is obviously tremendous, was the "thrown preemptively" part. And that he NO DOUBT throws a **** of a punch.
I'm sure you know the one who lands the first strike USUALLY wins. As in almost always if they throw a even a decently effective strike and land it someplace effective.
That's always been my experience in the vast majority of fights I saw, I saw more than I was in thankfully. I would agree with him also that a straight punch, "thrown preemptively" usually ends the fight, again ime. A straight punch is fast and hard to see if done right. And it probably has the least telegraph.
I had a friend I worked LE and executive protection with who won most encounters this way. He had a saying, especially since he usually threw the punch while the other guy was blustering, "He was so busy bs'ing he didn't realize the fight had already started".
The "thrown preemptively" part is legally difficult these days though.
Nick

[Naperville]

Tai Chi - Just Do It!

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/the- ... ce=twitter

[Naperville]

FREE >> Generally, very sound knife techniques.

Remember: anything with a rattan stick is actually a machete move in most circumstances.

Kali Center
https://odysee.com/@KaliCenter:6

[James Y]

Thanks a lot for your comments and sharing your experiences, Nick.

I haven't personally noticed any difference in rigidity in the hand position I use in axe hand strikes and the thumb out way of doing it. I've also seen some modern combatives instructors have their fingers fully extended straight out, and splayed apart. Which I really do not understand. That's just begging for finger injuries. For some, it appears like they're doing it to look stylish.

I also see the people doing the fingers splayed out when doing Muay Thai elbows. When doing elbow strikes, I keep the fingers of the striking side hand in a half-closed position, like a partly-closed fist. This habd shape is more compact when elbowing and again, the fingers are far less likely to be snagged, caught, or smashed when elbowing.

When training my personal self-defense material (which is mostly what I train now), I change or remove anything that is done for style points, or to "look more cool." Even some people whose emphasis is on practicality sometimes do combative strikes with (apparently) some subconscious awareness of the appearance of their strikes. My only emphasis regarding what I train for SD is that it potentially maximizes effect while minimizing risk of injury to self. Nothing is foolproof, but I am mindful in how I train so that it will be as natural as possible and not require much thought in real life.



As far emphasizing fewer things, Geoff Thompson emphasized mainly one technique in most of the 300+
fights he won as a doorman (bouncer) in the dangerous clubs in Coventry, England, during the violent years of the '80s and '90s. That one technique was a straight (or slightly hooked) right punch to the chin or jaw, thrown preemptively, when violence was imminent. Supposedly, however almost he said he almost never hurt his hand during that time. Maybe he hurt it once or twice during that time. Some people can get away with bare-fisted head punches on the street, but it's still more risky, and for pure SD, I prefer palm heel and blade of hand. They're also more unexpected than closed-fist punches, and the delivery is different.

I also like the tiger claw to the eyes, and hammer fists. But you still must be cognizant of how you land hammer fists. Some people have broken the base knuckle of their pinky finger from not landing hammer fists fully on the fleshy edge of hand, the same striking surface used in axe hands. Your elbow position relative to the target angle is vital when using hammer fists, to properly strike with the fleshy edge of the hand (or the edge of the forearm above it, if the target is closer).

Jim

Jim,
Agree completely on not splaying your fingers and the finger positioning on other strikes.

I would say Morrison's main reason for success, taking NOTHING away from him or his skill and knowledge, which is obviously tremendous, was the "thrown preemptively" part. And that he NO DOUBT throws a **** of a punch.
I'm sure you know the one who lands the first strike USUALLY wins. As in almost always if they throw a even a decently effective strike and land it someplace effective.
That's always been my experience in the vast majority of fights I saw, I saw more than I was in thankfully. I would agree with him also that a straight punch, "thrown preemptively" usually ends the fight, again ime. A straight punch is fast and hard to see if done right. And it probably has the least telegraph.
I had a friend I worked LE and executive protection with who won most encounters this way. He had a saying, especially since he usually threw the punch while the other guy was blustering, "He was so busy bs'ing he didn't realize the fight had already started".
The "thrown preemptively" part is legally difficult these days though.
Nick

Thanks a lot for sharing, Nick.

Yes, it's usually pre-emptive shots that determine the "winner" in most situations. And yes, in instances where you know violence is imminent, and if the aggressor is talking, a good preemptive strike should hit him when he's in the middle of saying something. Or maybe you ask him a short, nonsensical question, and hit him before your sentence is complete, while his brain is temporarily engaged. Of course, things don't always go that way, but these types of strategies are good, as well as NOT being in an obvious fighting stance and guard position, but still having your hands up and body bladed to him.

Here is Geoff Thompson himself, discussing some of his experiences in his years on the door. He has become a very different person since those days, and discusses some of his non-religious spiritual insights, which I like a lot. Geoff Thompson is one of the martial artists I have the most respect and admiration for, because it takes A LOT of work to overcome your own ego, and it's never a "one and done" deal. It is a lifelong process.

How to Use Fear and Doubt: Geoff Thompson



Jim

[James Y]

"Your Foot Sticks to the Kick"



This oblique kick is a basic kick in many traditional Kung Fu systems, as well as some traditional Okinawan Karate systems. There is nothing weird or unique about it. Many in the comments section under this video are saying this kick doesn't work in real life. They are ignorant. In reality, this is among the most practical kicks one could train for self-defense.

It can be used to block kicks, like in the video; but any time your opponent puts his weight onto his forward foot, as in whenever he steps towards you, or is pulled forward, his forward leg is vulnerable to this type of kick. If you catch the opponent on his knee at an angle, or on his lower shin, with your full weight coming forward and down into the kick, the receiver's knee, shin, or ankle can be badly injured. I've seen it happen. The effects can be much more immediate and severe than if you Muay Thai round kicked his leg, which requires more space, and usually requires multiple kicks to take effect.

You are also generally using your hands at the same time you use this kick; it is generally not used in isolation. In many Kung Fu forms, when someone steps forward into a twist stance, that step is actually a hidden oblique kick, or at least the possibility of one.

Can the instructor in the video do it in a real fight? I don't know. But I do know that the technique he's showing is legit. He can certainly apply it better than some 5' 5", 280-pound internet troll with Cheetos dust all over his face and fingers, typing insults from his mommy's basement. It's all good, though. People like that will never learn anything of value that doesn't fit into their own narrow paradigm, which means that such people voluntarily eliminate themselves from learning a lot of practical stuff.

There are different ways to apply this kick. The instructor in the video uses the pendulum-like delivery. There is also a thrusting, stamping method in which you bend your knee and thrust the foot at an angle downwards into the opponent's knee, shin, or ankle.

Jim

[James Y]

Simple and Reliable Knife Defense Everyone Should Know (Tried & Tested)

I'll be interested what others involved in knife-oriented methods think. I've never practiced empty-handed knife defenses myself, except for impractical knife defenses that were taught back in my Kenpo days, that I had to learn as part of the curriculum, but that I never believed in.

I do have methods, if I have a weapon of my own, especially one that provides some distance, like a walking stick.

I would imagine that someone who is experienced at using knives as weapons would hack up the defender's forearms, hands/fingers if they used that 2-handed cross-hand block. I do know that if I had to use a knife in that manner, I'm going to cut any part of his body that he presents to me, not limiting my targets to only his torso. But that defense is certainly better than nothing.

Most people rarely take into account the physical AND emotional stress / adrenaline dump that comes with a real violent attack.

Someone does NOT need to be trained in knife martial arts or modern knife combatives to be lethal with a knife. All someone needs is willingness and determination, and to be physically capable enough to use the knife.



Jim

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Jim please explain two things.

1 a bouncer told me that the bar and club scene waa much more dangerous in the 1970s through 1990s. That it was like a wild west. What made it safer in the 2000s and on? More cameras and law changes? Someone else said the increase in pro criminal policy is making danger arise again. Supposedly in the pre 1970s the Old West and Chicago Prohibition era were the most dangerous other than dedicated criminal places like outlaw biker bars.


2 what is a bare basic martial arts self defense type you recommend again?

[Naperville]

Simple and Reliable Knife Defense Everyone Should Know (Tried & Tested)

I'll be interested what others involved in knife-oriented methods think. I've never practiced empty-handed knife defenses myself, except for impractical knife defenses that were taught back in my Kenpo days, that I had to learn as part of the curriculum, but that I never believed in.

I do have methods, if I have a weapon of my own, especially one that provides some distance, like a walking stick.

I would imagine that someone who is experienced at using knives as weapons would hack up the defender's forearms, hands/fingers if they used that 2-handed cross-hand block. I do know that if I had to use a knife in that manner, I'm going to cut any part of his body that he presents to me, not limiting my targets to only his torso. But that defense is certainly better than nothing.

Most people rarely take into account the physical AND emotional stress / adrenaline dump that comes with a real violent attack.

Someone does NOT need to be trained in knife martial arts or modern knife combatives to be lethal with a knife. All someone needs is willingness and determination, and to be physically capable enough to use the knife.



Jim

I'd take that video down so that people do not develop bad habits. But you just never know what we are going to do, do we? Nonetheless, forming an "X" for a block against an edged weapon is a bad idea and you are going to get cut really bad. Probably bleed to death as a result.

This is not discussed in very many places but: Daggers cut a full 360 degrees from the axis of the knife blade, and single edged blades cut 180 degrees from one knife edge. This is not hard to picture. You can turn a knife along it's length or move a knife edge 90 degrees to the right and 90 degrees to the left...that is your 180 degrees facing away from you, and as for a dagger you can double the number of degrees covered by blade edges. You can move an edge to any degree by manipulating or turning your wrist, and that is why it is so hard to defend against a knife attack even when you are aware that one is coming. It is not just a slash or thrust, there may be a pitch and a yaw due to wrist, elbow, and shoulder movement. Think of a mast on a sailboat riding the waves, and try to follow the mast....now try to imagine a knife blade bobbing with one or two edge as you try to STOP it from cutting you.

I do not want any part of defending against a knife, but they make excellent self defense tools for just that reason.

The best video series that I have found regarding knife self defense is in the Dog Brothers Die Less Often series. But there are ways around their techniques too. It is too complex to go into here but the basics are that you attack the knife arm. There are 5 DVDs in the series that you can buy or download from the Dog Brothers website. The Dog Brothers have been involved in bladed martial arts and pugilist arts for at least 30+ years and they are well respected. I suggest buying and studying the first 4 DVDs/downloads if you are serious about knife defense.

https://dogbrothersgear.com/pages/video-downloads

SOME SHORT CLIPS FROM THE DVDs/Downloads

[Jimandchris2]

I did Army combative training hand-to-hand combat systems used by the US Army to teach soldiers how to fight on the ground. The goal is to close the gap between the soldier and the enemy, gain dominance, and finish the fight. Combatives are based in martial arts but are not distinct disciplines. The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) began in 1995 with the 2nd Ranger Battalion and has since spread throughout the Army.
The MACP teaches soldiers the fundamentals of hand-to-hand combat, such as how to use joint locks. The most common joint lock is the straight armbar, but small joint locks and spinal locks are also taught. However, small joint locks are not considered effective methods of ending fights, and spinal locks are not safe to practice.
I sucked at it,but tried to understand why we needed it to stay resilient