s35vn compared to s30v?

[Ankerson]

Ankerson,
A link was posted some where in this thread to a post you did in 2010 where you had ranked steels into 9 groups according to testing you had conducted. CPM S35VN at 59.5 was in the 5 group. Now I believe the CRK S35VN is rated at 57-58, correct? Would it be fair to ask you where you think the CRK flavor of the35 would fall in your groups of nine?

In CTS's rope cutting tests he finishes the cutting in ~ 10 minutes with just a few pauses during the cutting. Would that generate enough heat to alter the steel in apex of the blade? If the same number of cuts, over one hundred, were done in a longer period of time allowing cooling between each cut would the metal fold over. Also if the rope was wet with cool water would that same blade fail in the same way?

Anyway this is a very interesting topic. I appreciate you folks sharing your knowledge, expirence and opinions with the forum.
Thanks for teaching me so much...

I really don't know what CRK does with S35VN for sure because I never had one of his knives in S35VN and or had it hardness tested.

The Certificates say 58-59 RC though......

On the method in the video in question I really couldn't say because I haven't ever had a blade get hot when I was cutting rope, cardboard yes, but not rope.

[Ankerson]

If S35VN is more geared towards a balanced steel in properties I pose the question, why not just use CPM-154 that is Crucibles answer to RWL-34? RWL-34 IMO is one of the best balanced steels available with regards to Sharpness, Edge stability, Wear resistance, Toughness and Corrosion resistance.

CPM 154 (Used a lot by the Custom makers) was the other steel that was mentioned in the discussions along with ELMAX, both were already available, had great reputations, but that player couldn't claim either because they were not NEW.

It however is noteworthy that ELMAX AND CPM 154 are being used a lot more now in production knives recently after S35VN was released than before it was released..... That's really interesting if you think about it.....

Maybe some of the makers have been listening and or did their own testing and chose the other 2 steels over or with S35VN instead of blindly following the crowd..........

One thing for sure is that it seems that they all just didn't jump all over S35VN like they did back in 2001 with S30V just because......

Yes there are various models around in S35VN, but that's in conjunction with S30V, CPM 154 and ELMAX..... So as time goes on we will see what happens....

IMO there was nothing really wrong with S30V in the 1st place when it was properly HT and I do believe a lot of the bad reputation was due to bad HT and or over heated edges on the production knives used by end users who were using the out of box factory edges.

[Ankerson]

It seems like more of a side step, but won't the increased toughness help most users?

Gringo mentioned that he has trouble getting a novelty edge on S30V. I've heard someone say (and it could be a rumor) that the whole reason S35VN was developed was because S30V was tough to polish.

Less wear on equipment due to the reduced Vanadium content, that also leads to easier to polish/finish due to the reduced wear resistance.

[Cliff Stamp]

How do you address the quote from Sal on Bladeforums?

I need a little detail, what quote specifically.

In the end knowing little about the situation it seems grossly blown out of proportion.

This is a known issue of reporting, people are both far more likely to report issues than neutral experiences and other people are more likely to spread the same. It is one of the many biases which can affect performance polls.

The more extreme the failure and the difference from expectation the larger this will happen. This is why makers and manufacturers have a strong liability because they are the ones who create the expectation of performance -and- manage it.

There is no argument that this is NOT how S35VN was promoted :

"Ok, see this steel, it has no performance advantages to the ELU, in fact in direct comparisons on long term edge holding (you know the tests we used to promote S30V to be superior) it actually will show less performance. However it does make it easier for makers/manufacturers to produce the knives and it was upon their request we developed it."

The marketing was clearly the opposite :

-no loss in performance
-increased performance in multiple attributes

Many people took this and ran with it and started promoting it for having increased performance. Now you can't blame the manufacturers for what people say, but you can make them liable for implying it because that is exactly why marketing sheets are wrote that way to get word-of-mouth going.

Now John is a curious case in regards to reviewer/feedback and yes there have been complaints about him not responding to makers/manufacturers and I would argue if you are going to call a maker/manufacturer out then you have to co-operate with them (within reason) to confirm defects and you have a responsibility in the extreme to even issue call-back type statements.

As an interesting point, John is now a knife maker, I am personally interested in how he will respond to critical claims about his knives as I would expect he would get them because of the claims/demands/statements he has made and the standard he has discussed. He certainly has a high performance expectation implied in his knives and as well certainly could not argue / criticize if someone took a very keen eye to evaluation of same and made similar posts/videos.

[Ankerson]

There is no argument that this is NOT how S35VN was promoted :

"Ok, see this steel, it has no performance advantages to the ELU, in fact in direct comparisons on long term edge holding (you know the tests we used to promote S30V to be superior) it actually will show less performance. However it does make it easier for makers/manufacturers to produce the knives and it was upon their request we developed it."

The marketing was clearly the opposite :

-no loss in performance
-increased performance in multiple attributes

Many people took this and ran with it and started promoting it for having increased performance. Now you can't blame the manufacturers for what people say, but you can make them liable for implying it because that is exactly why marketing sheets are wrote that way to get word-of-mouth going.

That is funny because you are so dead spot on with that and that is exactly what happened. :D

A lot of it was to rub someones ego.....

And you owe me a cup of coffee because I laughed when I read it losing the coffee. :D

[Cliff Stamp]

If trusting Sal and Co's judgement makes one a fanboy or shill I guess some of us are guilty.

A shill is undisclosed, they pretend to be unbiased but are not.

A fanboy is someone who is extremely devoted to a product because they want to be not because of a critical and rational analysis.

For example, if Sal noted they were coming out with a line of kitchen knives in CTS-BD1 and he said :

a) Very high sharpness, excellent ease of sharpening, moderate corrosion resistance (no dishwashering), good toughness for a stainless

and you held the position that was true then it isn't necessarily a sign you're a fanboy because all of that can withstand critical inspection.

But if he said :

b) Highest sharpness of any steel, edge retention exceeding ceramic, more corrosion resistant than 420J2, tougher than S7

and you held that position was true simply because Sal said it, then you might be a fanboy.

It is a very simple line.

It isn't what you believe it is why you believe it and if you are, or are not, willing to critically evaluate it.

Fanboys want to believe it, this is the critical difference and it is immediately obvious when talking to them.

[chuck_roxas45]

A shill is undisclosed, they pretend to be unbiased but are not.

A fanboy is someone who is extremely devoted to a product because they want to be not because of a critical and rational analysis.

For example, if Sal noted they were coming out with a line of kitchen knives in CTS-BD1 and he said :

a) Very high sharpness, excellent ease of sharpening, moderate corrosion resistance (no dishwashering), good toughness for a stainless

and you held the position that was true then it isn't necessarily a sign you're a fanboy because all of that can withstand critical inspection.

But if he said :

b) Highest sharpness of any steel, edge retention exceeding ceramic, more corrosion resistant than 420J2, tougher than S7

and you held that position was true simply because Sal said it, then you might be a fanboy.

It is a very simple line.

It isn't what you believe it is why you believe it and if you are, or are not, willing to critically evaluate it.

Fanboys want to believe it, this is the critical difference and it is immediately obvious when talking to them.

So I guess if it isn't AEB-L with very low angles, then we're just fanboys... :rolleyes:

[The Deacon]

If trusting Sal and Co's judgement makes one a fanboy or shill I guess some of us are guilty.

GUILTY! It's really all I need.

(and one additional thought, if it's wrong, Sal & crew will make it right!)

Ken

+ 1

I'll trust Sal's integrity and judgement over that of someone whose main goal seems to be getting more YouTube hits than lightsaber boy.

[Ankerson]

+ 1

I'll trust Sal's integrity and judgement over that of someone whose main goal seems to be getting more YouTube hits than lightsaber boy.

Spyderco does extensive testing, both CATRA and real world so yes I would say people can trust Sal's judgement on what steels to use for various needs.

He is also extremely knowledgeable about steels. :spyder:

[dragonram7]

I've never met Sal or Eric. However I have been reading their responses and watched the way the company conducts itself. Great men, great company. All this contraversy makes me want to buy an S35VN and take it up to the mountains with my scouts. Spyderco is reliable and they stand behind their products. I have used them before during and after being a cop.
I think the S35VN raised a question in my mind. That is why I purchased S30V for my son in the manix.

[JNewell]

Yes. Here's the deal. Sal Glesser is not going to market a knife with a steel that is unsuitable for its intended purposes. And, by the way, neither is NSM. But this is the internet era and people will do, say and video anything for controversy and paid hits.

[FCM415]

...And whichever way you cut it, he wins out. The hits, the notariety, feeling important that people listen... And the ones that are calling BS are getting called names like fanboy. Again, truth seeking is everyone's goal and we all welcome Ankerson's and everyone else's research, criticism, and contribution. No on is out to supress research, dont get it confused.

[JNewell]

But it is hard with knives. The CATRA process eliminates some variables at the expense of some feedback that's relevant in real world use. Cutting tests are going to vary depending on many variables such as the specific media, edge finish, primary and secondary edge bevels, hardness, etc. I think Jim's tests are as good as it gets for a broad spectrum of knives on as consistent a basis as possible in the real world, but at the end of the day the only way to find out how the knife (and I do mean knife, not steel) performs is to get out and use it the way you need it to work. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

The CATRA process eliminates some variables at the expense of some feedback that's relevant in real world use.

The CATRA method doesn't eliminate a variable, it eliminates the actual thing you need to measure for most questions that are asked of this topic.

To understand just how absurd this is :

Imagine if I asked you how well the Sharpmaker worked and in order to determine this you set up a robotic arm which moved a blade up and down perfectly vertically and then you argued that the Sharpmaker was an excellent way for people to be able to get consistent angles.

The Sharpmaker claims to work by arguing that it is easier for a person to keep (by eye) a vertical angle of 90, vs a horizontal angle of 15 and 20 (as desired). If you just have a machine move up and down on 90 it is wonderfully precise but has no accuracy at all to answer the question.

As for comparing edge retention, there is an extremely large and well developed method which can be used to do exactly this - it is of course basic science. The more you use it the more knowledge you gain, the more you ignore it the increased change of disinformation.

It is very easy to do simple experiments which generate knowledge. I had this as one of the knife challenges : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7L2BTzYLzM . People flooded in with so many descriptions of valid experiments it was difficult to choose who had the best one.

[Clip]

I have nothing against you CTS, but I do wish you would stop talking about how you were talked to by Chris Reeve. It has been going on way to long IMO.

I, for one am grateful and appreciative when this type of information is shared as it allows me to make an informed decision on whether or not I choose to support a given company. My life is short and my time is valuable and I work way too hard for my money to support a company who treats their customers this way. I don't care how nice his knives are. He can kick rocks.

As Blerv pointed out, reputations take a long time to be formed and this is one incident I've found out about by word-of-mouth. A quick search turns up several stories of how CRK bent over backwards to help customers as well, again by word-of-mouth. Not sure it'd be fair to either side to cancel relations based on what's written on a forum like this. Same with Strider and BRKT. Heard terrible things about both of them but also success stories so I prefer to give them a call and generate my opinions by how they treat me.

Now that I've veered from the topic, I'll let it get back on track.

[Cliff Stamp]

.... generate my opinions by how they treat me.

Lots of people are this way, however lots of people are not. I would not for example support a maker who acted as Reeve did to John at the last Blade Show. That being said anyone can have an off day, and not every interaction is perfect. However the real test of customer service is solving critical problems, not dealing with customers who over flow with praise, no one has an issue with service there.

[Donut]

Cliff, I was wondering, if Spyderco did a sprint in AEB-L, what model do you think would be best for it?

[Blerv]

There are two sides to every coin. Even if someone got an earful from a maker they typically do not come out of left-field even (at the VERY least) it was a preconceived notion of ill-intent.

I'm sure Chris Reeve is a very proud man; he's won like 13 Blade awards. People like Sal Glessar are very proud people too. This doesn't make them "prideful" but when you have earned your scars from forming and maintaining a company they don't go away. There is a fine line between hearing someone out and validating their data which can cost your company thousands of dollars. Some obviously will take a different approach with public relations, if a politician can screw up the president of a knife company sure can too.

I remember when Jim Ankerson broke the Manix2 lock. Many (including me :o ) screamed for bloody murder. Sal got somewhat defensive. Jim responded to everything very professionally and worked through the situation. The Manix2, as I understand, it was improved. I would say most people here really like Jim. Sure everyone acted a bit brash, but people worked through it like a verbose family during a holiday dinner. :rolleyes:

Taking a page from the book of science even if Chris chewed John up over the phone it doesn't change the data he has/hasn't proved. It's a trite display of emotions to a tester of steel. In fact, what people say on the forums shouldn't matter either. Just the truth based on repeatable science.

If someone told a group of people that the Easter Bunny wasn't real and this caused them to seethe, spit, and curse him/her...but the group couldn't prove it did, why would this person care? Doesn't that invalidate the audience from having a rational perspective?

Now...if that person who just supposedly got a verbal lashing from the Easter Bunny zealots told us all about it would we hold it against them without proof?

[Donut]

There are two sides to every coin. Even if someone got an earful from a maker they typically do not come out of left-field even (at the VERY least) it was a preconceived notion of ill-intent.

I'm sure Chris Reeve is a very proud man; he's won like 13 Blade awards. People like Sal Glessar are very proud people too. This doesn't make them "prideful" but when you have earned your scars from forming and maintaining a company they don't go away. There is a fine line between hearing someone out and validating their data which can cost your company thousands of dollars. Some obviously will take a different approach with public relations, if a politician can screw up the president of a knife company sure can too.

I remember when Jim Ankerson broke the Manix2 lock. Many (including me :o ) screamed for bloody murder. Sal got somewhat defensive. Jim responded to everything very professionally and worked through the situation. The Manix2, as I understand, it was improved. I would say most people here really like Jim. Sure everyone acted a bit brash, but people worked through it like a verbose family during a holiday dinner. :rolleyes:

Taking a page from the book of science even if Chris chewed John up over the phone it doesn't change the data he has/hasn't proved. It's a trite display of emotions to a tester of steel. In fact, what people say on the forums shouldn't matter either. Just the truth based on repeatable science.

If someone told a group of people that the Easter Bunny wasn't real and this caused them to seethe, spit, and curse him/her...but the group couldn't prove it did, why would this person care? Doesn't that invalidate the audience from having a rational perspective?

Now...if that person who just supposedly got a verbal lashing from the Easter Bunny zealots told us all about it would we hold it against them without proof?

The absurdity of this is pretty amazing. :p

[Blerv]

The absurdity of this is pretty amazing. :p

It's my specialty. Also, our office is out of chocolate.