MAP policy change? 35%

[gaj999]

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate...

Thanks for chiming in. Sounds to me like online sales are more trouble than they're worth for a smaller shop.

[Brock O Lee]

I buy around 2-3 Spydercos per year. To be honest I have too many already in all shapes, sizes and steels.

I will continue to buy interesting models if I can afford it, and if the knife feels like value for my money.

[Chopping Broccoli]

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate...

Thanks for chiming in. Sounds to me like online sales are more trouble than they're worth for a smaller shop.

Agreed. Online sales appear to not be worth it for smaller shops. That is, unless they are doing VOLUME sales. With the price increases, it does lend itself well to selling more units.

[jtoler_9]

So say what you want about MAP, but if enforced that 5% is a huge deal from most small knife dealers. It's the difference between selling Spyderco and not. My 2 cents.

I appreciate you sharing your point of view as well. It provides another insightful perspective.

I am curious to know what your thoughts are after the 5% bump? Do you think you will sell more Spyderco’s or fewer?
Any thoughts on Amazon?

In my simple customer non dealer mind it’s a value or volume business. And as prices increases, the value should also. If it doesn’t, I fear the market won’t bear the increase.

As an example;

I just picked up a new PITS ($400.00 MSRP) on close out for $100.00. Now I realize Spyderco will discontinue models for many reasons. I don’t pretend to understand any of them. But if your saying your take home on selling a P2 is $5.00 at 40% off MSRP, I can’t imagine anyone made any money on my PITS purchase. Point I’m painfully trying to make is I feel the higher the price goes in the next few years, there may be more blades sitting in shelves longer and getting dumped at $75% off like my PITS.

With all that said, I’m sure Spyderco knows much more about all this than I do. They will make whatever decisions are in their best interest. We all agree on that. But as prices go higher year after year, I won’t be able to buy as many of your wonderful products. I’ve been in the same job for 7 years and I haven’t seen a raise in the last 4. So your prices are going where I can’t and shouldn’t follow.

All I can do is wish you the best and I hope you attract many new collectors and users alike with deep pockets.

[MacLaren]

That's just it. The only wages that ever go up are CEO's.
The average worker rarely ever sees a raise of more than 2%
And that's a very real issue imo.

[PaleMoon]

Bingo. I reckon the "Uncle Sal" fervor is only ever 5% (or 8.3) away from disdain for some people.

Really surprised with this, but perhaps it's more of a knee-jerk reaction than anything, and we just need to let the dust settle a little bit. Then again, friendships and money don't tend to mix too well.

Personally, I'll keep doing what I've always done; buy the Spydercos I like and feel are worth the money, from dealers I like and feel deserve my money.

[wsdavies]

I think I will sell around the same # of knives, but making just 5% would make a huge difference in my ability to stay committed to selling the brand. As for Amazon, if I were Spyderco I would stay away as far as possible. Bezos is a shark and out for blood. They are the type of business to sell your product and then start squeezing more and more discounts out of you. If you don't stick to your guns with MAP year after year they make up more and more of your volume and have more leverage against you. Then when you are breaking even and push back they tell you that's fine we'll stop selling you and promote Brand Z and you realize if they do that you won't be able to make your cashflow financing payments.. At that point you are working for them and you'll make what ever they determine you should make. The wider the spectrum of good sellers that Spyderco has the better. Then they have folks far and wide in their corner pushing their brand all at a markup fair to all involved. Value is 100% tied to perception and perception is tied to influencers. When people love your product and how you take care of them they go the extra mile to promote the brand and that creates perceived value.

So say what you want about MAP, but if enforced that 5% is a huge deal from most small knife dealers. It's the difference between selling Spyderco and not. My 2 cents.

I appreciate you sharing your point of view as well. It provides another insightful perspective.

I am curious to know what your thoughts are after the 5% bump? Do you think you will sell more Spyderco’s or fewer?
Any thoughts on Amazon?

In my simple customer non dealer mind it’s a value or volume business. And as prices increases, the value should also. If it doesn’t, I fear the market won’t bear the increase.

As an example;

I just picked up a new PITS ($400.00 MSRP) on close out for $100.00. Now I realize Spyderco will discontinue models for many reasons. I don’t pretend to understand any of them. But if your saying your take home on selling a P2 is $5.00 at 40% off MSRP, I can’t imagine anyone made any money on my PITS purchase. Point I’m painfully trying to make is I feel the higher the price goes in the next few years, there may be more blades sitting in shelves longer and getting dumped at $75% off like my PITS.

With all that said, I’m sure Spyderco knows much more about all this than I do. They will make whatever decisions are in their best interest. We all agree on that. But as prices go higher year after year, I won’t be able to buy as many of your wonderful products. I’ve been in the same job for 7 years and I haven’t seen a raise in the last 4. So your prices are going where I can’t and shouldn’t follow.

All I can do is wish you the best and I hope you attract many new collectors and users alike with deep pockets.

[JRinFL]

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate...

Thanks for chiming in. Sounds to me like online sales are more trouble than they're worth for a smaller shop.

Truly!
With margins that low, it’s a money loser to sell Spyderco knives. You’d have to make it up with massive volume or drop the line entirely. I cannot see this a sustainable if his numbers are correct. I wonder when we will see Spyderco move to a direct sales method. With worldwide internet access they have all the reach they need.

[mastiff]

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate. 1st off I sell Spyderco because I love the brand and respect Sal Glesser and his way of treating people. I don't sell it because there is a lot of money in it, because there isn't. Let's use the venerable Spyderco Paramilitary 2 as an example. Digi-Satin. $125.97 MAP price. So Paypal or who ever processes payments is going to take their 2-3%..lets call it 2.5%. So now we are at $122.82. 1st class shipping in a decent box packaged right costs about $4.50. Everyone these days expects free shipping. So now you are at $118.32. Add in the cost of liability insurance, theft insurance, labor to maintain inventory and package/ship, electricity, rent, website costs, advertising, and basic admin and you are prob at $110.00 per knife. At $110 per knife the dealer is making like $5. That's before the pissed off customer calls you wanting to return it because the centering is not absolutely perfect or they don't like the digi pattern on this knife and want you to scavenge through your inventory and take pics and ship them a replacement and cover the shipping again...now you at zero on the knife. Let me tell you as a person who is in business to pay their bills and feed their kids it's not a very enticing scenario. So let's say you sell 100 PM2s in a year. That's less then $500 for a whole lot of work. Now take a $75 Delica and halve the profit. In this thread I've seen quite a few comments saying dealers don't take less then MAP so it amounts to price fixing. BS, the reason they don't take less then MAP is they are trying to run a business, and anything less and they aren't making anything. The bottom line is the bottom line. That's the reason you don't see Spyderco in a lot of local shops, there just isn't enough to be made to make it worth their while. Like I said, I sell Spyderco because I love the knives, the company and the brand. This is a business with a soul, unlike some others that are just big corporate machines. So say what you want about MAP, but if enforced that 5% is a huge deal from most small knife dealers. It's the difference between selling Spyderco and not. My 2 cents.

Can you give away free hats? How about shirts? Crappy flight tags? I know it's sad but too many people care about this crap. Does anyone else get emails for free stuff if you only spend $49. I got one for a free microfiber cloth at that price no joke just a few days ago. Can you do that for your customers? MAP will eventually kill your business. Sorry, but that's what it's designed to do.

You wouldn't have had to do the free shipping thing before MAP. People would check prices and if you beat the big guys by just a few pennies when shipping was calculated in you got the sale. National Knives operated in very this manner, still my favorite dealer. Do you as a little guy expect to compete with the likes of bladehq who can offer so much more than you can? MAP is a slow death for small guys. I'll do my part to help but I hate to say it's only a matter of time. How about when it hits %20, you still think someone will pick your shop over the big boys who not only offer free shipping but any number of useless baubles that the masses fall for?

If they instituted MAP on labor and parts at my shop I'd be out of business in a year or less. I beat out the big guys by undercutting them by just enough on labor and parts to bring in new customers and keep my regulars. Competing with the big guys is hard enough without being hamstrung by MAP in smaller shop. Yeah, in the short run "Hooray, I'll make a little more per knife!". The big boys are playing the long game though, they'll keep throwing out ten cent or less knick-knacks and fifty cent t shirts and hats while stealing your customers till you go under.

[Liquid Cobra]

I like my flight tag from BladeHQ. It’s been on my keys for over a year and still brings me a little joy each day. Seems it has a use after all.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

All I know is that I have slowed way down on buying Spydercos since MAP went into effect because I can no longer get good deals that make them affordable. With the price increases (I understand that) and the MAP, it makes it hard for us average Joes. I did just buy 2 knives. I got in ahead of the change, I guess.

Doc, help me to understand this: Say an online knife seller, let's call them "Knife Super Mart", displays the new MAP price for a Spyderco Endura for 75 dollars. If I call their number and I say "I saw the new MAP at 75 dollars. Can you give me a discount on this item?" Are they able to or do they have to abide by the minimum price?

[Bile Bob]

I do not get it? What is the point of this? Amazon doesn't even follow MAP and it is supposedly there to level the playing field. This looks like a basic case of the rules only hurting the ones who follow them.

I am still sour about MAP being implemented in the first place and now this? I might be sticking to factory seconds and discontinued models soon.

This.

This years discontinued list had a lot of Spydercos most expensive knives on it.

Maybe MAP pricing catching up and effecting sales?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I hope this question does not violate the "No Sales Policy" of the forum but, wsdavies, if I may ask, what is the name and website if your knife store so Spyderco users can buy knives from you and support a small business?

[Doc Dan]

All I know is that I have slowed way down on buying Spydercos since MAP went into effect because I can no longer get good deals that make them affordable. With the price increases (I understand that) and the MAP, it makes it hard for us average Joes. I did just buy 2 knives. I got in ahead of the change, I guess.

Doc, help me to understand this: Say an online knife seller, let's call them "Knife Super Mart", displays the new MAP price for a Spyderco Endura for 75 dollars. If I call their number and I say "I saw the new MAP at 75 dollars. Can you give me a discount on this item?" Are they able to or do they have to abide by the minimum price?

I have not read Spyderco's terms, of course, so I am just guessing. As I understand it, MAP (Advertised Price) is exactly that, what is advertised. I do not think there is anything to keep a dealer from selling the knife cheaper, if it wants to do so, as long as they do not advertize it. Discount coupons can be offered without violating the terms. One retailer used to use the code BR549 for some brand of knives so the advertized price was the same as everyone else, but you could get the knife cheaper if you paid attention that you could use a discount code/coupon. There is a point below which no dealer is going to go, anyway, because you have to make a certain percentage to stay in business, no matter how much merchandise you move.

[cabfrank]

Absolutely correct. Sorry to be the devil's advocate here, but there is no way a small business survives making $5 on a $100 sale, unless there is more to the equation than meets the eye.

[bh49]

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate.

Thank you for insight info. Probably larger volume dealers have a better prices with Spyderco. Anyway, this is something between Spyderco and dealers and doesn't change a picture for users.
I think that I reached my final thoughts:
1. It is hobby, not life and death situation.
2. I am sure that I will continue to buy Spyderco knives. But I will be much more selective and certainly will buy less and spend less money.
3. I am sure that it will be more difficult for new people to enter the world of Spyderco. But this is not my problem.

[curlyhairedboy]

Good points in the last page. Especially looking at the end-game behavior of retailers on the scale of Amazon. We're already seeing popular, 'best in class' products getting undercut by AmazonBasics agreements.

I already know I can't trust amazon to ship me an authentic Spyderco 100% of the time, or even 50% of the time depending on the popularity of counterfeits AND the probability of someone returning a fake.

I do think that supporting local businesses and smaller knife retailers is something I'm willing to pay a premium for. For me at least, there's something beyond just the purchase value that comes into the equation. I prefer shopping at Costco instead of Walmart or even Amazon because I know that Costco does a better job making sure its employees can stay afloat.


If the price hikes are to support spyderco, and the MAP change is to support the smaller dealership network, then I'll happily pay 8.3% more and know that I'm at least getting a quality product from people who care. Amazon can't tell the difference between real and fake, and they have enough money to not care.

[sal]

Interesting thread.

I get the impression that many of you would be happier if we made all of our knives in China (cheap) and only sold to Walmart & Amazon (cheap) so YOU can get what YOU want as cheaply as possible? Or maybe we could get our crew, dealers, advertisers, shippers, suppliers, etc., to work for free?

It is our dealers that have asked us to do this. Not just B&M stores, but internet as well. Internet dealers have thanked us for doing it. The very same dealers that you get our knives from. Surely you aren't saying that you don't care about them, are you?

We don't make any more money from map. In fact it costs us more to monitor and enforce. Please try to broaden your understanding of production and distribution. You will have greater appreciation for what it takes to get you our product.

sal

[wsdavies]

Thank You Sal. I honestly think if everyone knew how crazy business really is dealing with: fakes, lawsuits, competition from countries with no labor laws, scammers, unethical competition...etc they would really appreciate a business like Spyderco who tries to treat the people it deals decently and shows loyalty to stakeholders/customers when it isn't always great for Spyderco's bottom line.

Interesting thread.

I get the impression that many of you would be happier if we made all of our knives in China (cheap) and only sold to Walmart & Amazon (cheap) so YOU can get what YOU want as cheaply as possible? Or maybe we could get our crew, dealers, advertisers, shippers, suppliers, etc., to work for free?

It is our dealers that have asked us to do this. Not just B&M stores, but internet as well. Internet dealers have thanked us for doing it. The very same dealers that you get our knives from. Surely you aren't saying that you don't care about them, are you?

We don't make any more money from map. In fact it costs us more to monitor and enforce. Please try to broaden your understanding of production and distribution. You will have greater appreciation for what it takes to get you our product.

sal

[wsdavies]

My business has grown every single year since I started it. Why?? Because we have a huge commitment towards customer service at a high level. We treat people how we want to be treated and those that deal with us that value this sort of thing come back time and time again. They know their knife will be authentic, shipped in the best packaging, the same day, and that if there ever is an issue or question it is handled quickly and fairly. I didn't start this business to make $. It was born out of my love of knives and passion for the process of business. The $ we make is just a by-product of that passion. People that deal with us that share the same passion sense that and know they are dealing with a kindred spirit.

I'd say it's time for a knife dealer to chime in and add some real world information to this debate. 1st off I sell Spyderco because I love the brand and respect Sal Glesser and his way of treating people. I don't sell it because there is a lot of money in it, because there isn't. Let's use the venerable Spyderco Paramilitary 2 as an example. Digi-Satin. $125.97 MAP price. So Paypal or who ever processes payments is going to take their 2-3%..lets call it 2.5%. So now we are at $122.82. 1st class shipping in a decent box packaged right costs about $4.50. Everyone these days expects free shipping. So now you are at $118.32. Add in the cost of liability insurance, theft insurance, labor to maintain inventory and package/ship, electricity, rent, website costs, advertising, and basic admin and you are prob at $110.00 per knife. At $110 per knife the dealer is making like $5. That's before the pissed off customer calls you wanting to return it because the centering is not absolutely perfect or they don't like the digi pattern on this knife and want you to scavenge through your inventory and take pics and ship them a replacement and cover the shipping again...now you at zero on the knife. Let me tell you as a person who is in business to pay their bills and feed their kids it's not a very enticing scenario. So let's say you sell 100 PM2s in a year. That's less then $500 for a whole lot of work. Now take a $75 Delica and halve the profit. In this thread I've seen quite a few comments saying dealers don't take less then MAP so it amounts to price fixing. BS, the reason they don't take less then MAP is they are trying to run a business, and anything less and they aren't making anything. The bottom line is the bottom line. That's the reason you don't see Spyderco in a lot of local shops, there just isn't enough to be made to make it worth their while. Like I said, I sell Spyderco because I love the knives, the company and the brand. This is a business with a soul, unlike some others that are just big corporate machines. So say what you want about MAP, but if enforced that 5% is a huge deal from most small knife dealers. It's the difference between selling Spyderco and not. My 2 cents.

Can you give away free hats? How about shirts? Crappy flight tags? I know it's sad but too many people care about this crap. Does anyone else get emails for free stuff if you only spend $49. I got one for a free microfiber cloth at that price no joke just a few days ago. Can you do that for your customers? MAP will eventually kill your business. Sorry, but that's what it's designed to do.

You wouldn't have had to do the free shipping thing before MAP. People would check prices and if you beat the big guys by just a few pennies when shipping was calculated in you got the sale. National Knives operated in very this manner, still my favorite dealer. Do you as a little guy expect to compete with the likes of bladehq who can offer so much more than you can? MAP is a slow death for small guys. I'll do my part to help but I hate to say it's only a matter of time. How about when it hits %20, you still think someone will pick your shop over the big boys who not only offer free shipping but any number of useless baubles that the masses fall for?

If they instituted MAP on labor and parts at my shop I'd be out of business in a year or less. I beat out the big guys by undercutting them by just enough on labor and parts to bring in new customers and keep my regulars. Competing with the big guys is hard enough without being hamstrung by MAP in smaller shop. Yeah, in the short run "Hooray, I'll make a little more per knife!". The big boys are playing the long game though, they'll keep throwing out ten cent or less knick-knacks and fifty cent t shirts and hats while stealing your customers till you go under.