Manix 2 lock fails hard-use test [VID] -- thoughts?

[Ankerson]

Consider this another welcome Ank.

Thanks. :)

[JNewell]

From me as well.

I've watched a lot of Jim's videos since the first post on another forum a few days ago. Unlike another notorious series of videos, I think he's totally straight up and squared away, even though his tests don't reflect any use (or any anticipated use) that I'd put a folder to.

I think there are at least three elements to consider.

Tips - nothing mysterious or surprising. With some variations for heat treat, grind and steel used, a tip that is thin will break sooner than one that is not. An Emerson CQC-7 will tip-pry better than a Military.

Locks - interesting, and I note that there's at least one other video showing spinewhacks on a Manix 2, but not after the uses shown in Jim's video. I have no idea what difference that might make - I'm sure we'll hear something eventually.

Pivot - I wonder if that's a key element here? The Manix 2 has a new-ish (to Spyderco) bushing design. Perhaps there are lessons to be learned here, and it is definitely possible that the bushing contributed to the lock situation.

In the meantime, I will wait patiently for whatever Eric & crew have to share after they've had a chance to evaluate things, and I will say that it will not change my confidence level in the Manix 2 for the uses I have for this really excellent knife.

[chuck_roxas45]

After those videos, I took out my M2 and found out that there is a tad bit of side to side play that can't be taken out by tightening the pivot.

[bchan]

This video brings up an issue that I always have had with the ball lock.

I own several Manix 2 variants, including; S90V CF, CTS-XHP, and the 154CM. My issue is the ball lock not traveling fully into position. In virtually all the Manix 2s I own the ball lock seems to semi engage. What I mean is this... I do get a tight lock up, however, the ball only travels a very short distance into the blade tang to get into locking position. When I turn the knife spine side down and look through the knife to see how far the ball has traveled I always find that I can see the ball, meaning it does not travel very far at all into locking position.

My thought is simple... if the ball moved further into the space between the blade slot and the "top piece of steel" thus sandwiching the ball further in... the lockup would be stronger and much more reliable.

-Joe

That's also my observation too...wonder whether it has some bearing on the spine-whack failure.

Anyway, Spyderco is going to have a look at the knife, that's a good thing. May be they can learn something from that.

[davibocce]

I am hoping that they can shed some light on this once they get it. :)

Thanks, I figured I had better come over here once I heard what was going on so I could answer any questions etc. :D

I tested 5 folders in the last week using my new testing format for hard use folding knives.

Good to have you here, Ankerson. I read your threads over there at bladeforum and watched your test videos. Really good stuff.

[FarmerSteve]

Did anyone else notice that the M2 decimated that piece of wood? I watched his other videos, and either he didn't put the other knives through the paces like he did the M2 or the M2's cutting ability is far superior to anything else he tested. Seriously, go back and watch all his videos and look at the piece of wood when he's done. I work my manix hard every day and I've not only never had any problems... it's one of my favorite knives. Yeah, go back and look at the damage. :D

[Pneumothorax]

The best kind.

First off, Ankerson is a respected member on at least two knife forums and may be trusted to be non-biased in his videos. Second, all we can accurately say is that the M2 failed some spine whacks and anything else is just conjecture. Third, I have every confidence in the CBBL and so ordered an M2 and a CTX-HXP M2. :)

To be clear, I wasnt trying to disrespect Ankerson. The video shows what it shows. All I was saying that it doesnt bother me with the type of use Im going to give it. And if I do work it that hard, I will be careful. I was just giving a semi-knife afi perspective, that's all. Still love my M2.

[JNewell]

That's also my observation too...wonder whether it has some bearing on the spine-whack failure.

Anyway, Spyderco is going to have a look at the knife, that's a good thing. May be they can learn something from that.

I'm not sure it's designed for the ball to engage the tang to its full depth, and I don't think it should be necessary for good lockup. The Axis lock has some similarities, and none of mine fully engage the blade tang. For both locks, I think this is intentional - it allows for some wear over time, and is also consistent with normal manufacturing tolerances.

[CharlesIV]

Note to self: don't repeatedly whack the spine of your Manix 2 into a block of wood.

Ok, got it.

Bingo!!

[Ankerson]

Good to have you here, Ankerson. I read your threads over there at bladeforum and watched your test videos. Really good stuff.

Thanks. :)

[THG]

The only thing this guy proved to me is that if you beat the crap out of a knife you can indeed break it.

How exactly did he prove that? He beat the crap out of the CS AL and DIDN'T break it. If anything, he proved that there's at least one design that WON'T break if you beat the crap out of it.

[Evil D]

How exactly did he prove that? He beat the crap out of the CS AL and DIDN'T break it. If anything, he proved that there's at least one design that WON'T break if you beat the crap out of it.

Ok so one knife can take an overly abusive beating better than another knife can take an overly abusive beating. The end result IMO is that all the tests are a bit extreme for a folder. I'll tip my hat to the knives that handled the test better but i guarantee you if you keep repeating the test that eventually any folder will fail given enough of this harsh treatment.

But i promise if i ever need to cut through 2x4s and find some practical application for beating the spine of my knife against a hard surface, i'll look into buying the other knives that handled those tasks better.

Oh...or maybe i'll just use the right tool for the job...like say a fixed blade or a hatchet.

[SaturnNyne]

I'm not sure it's designed for the ball to engage the tang to its full depth, and I don't think it should be necessary for good lockup. The Axis lock has some similarities, and none of mine fully engage the blade tang. For both locks, I think this is intentional - it allows for some wear over time, and is also consistent with normal manufacturing tolerances.

That's not what we're discussing; I'm not aware of any ball lock that bottoms out all the way to the full depth of the tang, leaving no room to compensate for wear. We were comparing engaged fully past the end of the tang (not completely to the end of possible travel) vs. engaging without clearing the end of the tang. In other words, we're saying it should engage the way you describe a properly functioning Axis engaging.

[bchan]

That's not what we're discussing; I'm not aware of any ball lock that bottoms out all the way to the full depth of the tang, leaving no room to compensate for wear. We were comparing engaged fully past the end of the tang (not completely to the end of possible travel) vs. engaging without clearing the end of the tang. In other words, we're saying it should engage the way you describe a properly functioning Axis engaging.

That's what I meant to say. SaturnNyne put it much better than I. Let me emphasize that when I talk about the lock design I have no intention whatsoever (as apparently some of the fellow forumites think) to discredit the lock design -- on the contrary, I also like the Manix 2 and own several myself -- rather, we are exploring whether improvements can be made to the lock design for the common benefit of all the owners of this knife.

[Ankerson]

Did anyone else notice that the M2 decimated that piece of wood? I watched his other videos, and either he didn't put the other knives through the paces like he did the M2 or the M2's cutting ability is far superior to anything else he tested. Seriously, go back and watch all his videos and look at the piece of wood when he's done. I work my manix hard every day and I've not only never had any problems... it's one of my favorite knives. Yeah, go back and look at the damage. :D

The 15 degree (30 Degree) factory edge helped a lot. :D

It really did slice very well just like I knew it would with that fine edge and blade grind. It was extremely sharp too. :)

[LorenzoL]

I don't think the lock design has anything to do with the failure of that Manix. The ball bearing itself did not fail. The failure was caused by everything around that bearing not being beefy enough, from the pivot to the liners. If the bearing is not properly held in place, the folder will fail. I think this reveals the limits of the bushing pivot and the need for liners that are actually thicker than a CD.

[dsmegst]

Ankerson,

Just a suggestion.

Is the main point of the test for the blade play that may develop during hard use or the ability to withstand spine wack tests? I submit that using the same knife for both tests will pollute your testing. I understand that you're going to have one knife to test with, but that's a limitation.

I think the best compromise is to do the spine wack after you return the knife as closely as you can to new condition. Tighten any loose screws, check for cracks or damages and then proceed, knowing all the parameters available to you.

Until you can get someone to send you a few more copies of the same knife, I think that's a good compromise. :)

[Ankerson]

Ankerson,

Just a suggestion.

Is the main point of the test for the blade play that may develop during hard use or the ability to withstand spine wack tests? I submit that using the same knife for both tests will pollute your testing. I understand that you're going to have one knife to test with, but that's a limitation.

I think the best compromise is to do the spine wack after you return the knife as closely as you can to new condition. Tighten any loose screws, check for cracks or damages and then proceed, knowing all the parameters available to you.

Until you can get someone to send you a few more copies of the same knife, I think that's a good compromise. :)

I hear what you are saying, but I tested all the knives the same at this point as you or I would receive them. The testing format that I developed was done over a lot of time testing different types of knives on and off camera. I finally came up with an across the board fair hard use test for folders that won't break all the knives. It's also short, repeatable and abusive enough to give them a real workout, but not too much to be unrealistic. This is a hard use test, not a break the knife test. If some fail then they fail, that's just how it is.

So far I have only had one complete failure and it just happens to be the M2, it's on it's way to Eric Glesser for inspection to find out why.

I have tested 7 folders using this new format so far and it looks like it's working very well.

Now if I had 3 of each knife, I would do the same test with each knife. :)

I understand that not everyone will be happy with every test that I do, but this is what I have and what I am doing. :)

A Hard Use Knife should be able to do some light prying, and a small amount of heavier prying, the pivot should be able to take some force without loosening up too much and the lock shouldn't fail the Over Strike and Spine Whacks. This should be able to be done with the same knife with no adjustments during the test.

[Evil D]

Hey i just wanna make it clear, i'm not bustin your balls or anything and i appreciate all you're doing...i just feel like it's a lot to ask of a folder. I think it's pretty **** amazing the other knives held up to the test and i'd definitely take that into consideration if i were in the market to buy one of these knives. I can't wait to hear back from Golden what they think about the test knife.

[Ankerson]

Hey i just wanna make it clear, i'm not bustin your balls or anything and i appreciate all you're doing...i just feel like it's a lot to ask of a folder. I think it's pretty **** amazing the other knives held up to the test and i'd definitely take that into consideration if i were in the market to buy one of these knives. I can't wait to hear back from Golden what they think about the test knife.

Thanks. :)

I know it's a lot to ask from a folder and that's the point of the testing that I am doing. This is a hard use test. :D

My last format was way too hard on the knives as in I broke way too many in the process, it was too much and way too hard on folding knives. I had shot videos on them, but never uploaded any of them because they were not realistic. I am not Noss4, I will let him break the knives.