Spyderco Forums

sal wrote:Hi Martyn,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Glad to have you here.

sal

Thanks Sal, long overdue to my shame. :)

Thanks North61, I understand you carry it over your clothes instead of the modern concealed carry neck knives. For a traditional approuch you are carrying it tip down I guess. For anyone not familiar with bushcraft it is not self evident why you have such strong preferances. Your use of a knife is as much focused on specific skills and needs as if it was taillored for a martial arts form.

Piet.S wrote:For anyone not familiar with bushcraft it is not self evident why you have such strong preferances. Your use of a knife is as much focused on specific skills and needs as if it was taillored for a martial arts form.

For the british lads, they stick pretty rigidly to the traditional Scandinavian methods, probably because Britain is covered in a similar type of forrestation. But also, I suspect because Mr mears teaches these same woodworking techniques and love or hate him, he is seen as the father of the movement in this country. The Scandinavians have lived and trapped in such forrests for many centuries and they stuill use many of the skills we lost.

I bought a Falkniven F1 about 6 months ago, it's a great knife, laminated VG10, rubber grips etc. For kitchen duties and light whittling, no worries. But the convex edge cant hols a candle to my single bevel scandi's for hard use woodworking. As has been mentioned, that big bevel just allows you to plane the wood with such control, it's a joy to use. Although not the best kitchen knife, it's metal and it's sharp, so it'll do.

Also, where the Falkniven falls down, is the handle design. I noticed the design was more contemporary, squarer and thinner than I'm used to. Not an issue for light work or kitchen stuff. Quite comfortable. But ...take it to a big bit of wood in anger and things change. If you really want to power cut throu something, or take a big shave off, then you have to grip the handle like you mean it. After 10 minutes of abusing a pine log, I'd managed to raise a good welt on my palm. It's put me right off the knife. Though I was already making excuses for the grind anyway.

It's important to be able to use a bushcraft knife through a range of power and control grips...



The hangle needs to be comfy and not raise any hot spots or welts. If somone is building a shelter, they may be using the knife in this way for a couple of hours.

Bushcraft isnt camping, or hunting, it's living off the land with the minimum of equipment. The say "carry less by knowing more". They want to get thier skills to the point where they can move through a forrest, building shelters out of only what they find, making traps, cooking utensils, drinking vessels, bowls and such, from what they find in the forrest. It makes the emphasis on woodwork paramount, it's not something they will compromise. You could try and sell them an idea of a different grind, but if it doesnt live up, they'll ditch it instantly.


BTW, I'm not a bushcrafter, but I do moderate the knife forums on BushcraftUK and like to listen to what they say. Occasionaly, I'm even tempted to have a go myself. :)

VG10 would get my vote for a stainless, though I use a Damasteel bushcrafter knife and it really performs!

In carbon... well CPM 3V would be nice! :)

About grinds, I used my Fallkniven F1 for some really hard batonning through pretty hard wood (2.5") on my last trip to Scotland. The edge is still pretty OK. I wonder if that's due to the convex grind, where in batonning the edge is only shortly in touch with the wood (only when you start).
With a flat-ground or single-scandi grind, I guess the edge would be under more pressure?
And, I wonder when splitting wood, if the single-bevel-scandi grind would push the blade in one direction and make it difficult to split it in half?
Any comments on that?

Ted, that makes a lot of sense, considering most hatches and axes are convex ground. I can only assume chopping blades are done that way for the reasons you mentioned. It preserves the edge.

I'm late to the game on this one, but it sounds very interesting. I'd been thinking about trying some bushcraft stuff myself lately. Can't wait to see some proto pictures!

Would it be an idea to have the blade mirror polished (on the 51200 version) to minimize the chance of rust?

Sal

Are there any more developments? :D

Cheers, Ken

Hi Ken.

We've got the blade shape down.

I'm still working on the handle, carving it.

Tiffers & Red are working on a sheath.

Onece the handle is finalized, we'll do a pilot so the sheath can be finished.

Current plan is 52100 steel with wood handle for the
"traditional" version. Grind is still a question, might do two (scandi & hamaguri).

S90V for the "Modern" version. Boltaon sheath, maybe a carbon fiber handle.

Still going back and forth between flat & hamaguri grinds.

I've been snowed since Blade show so not much has moved on my end since then.

thanx for the Thread(s).

sal

This is fantastic, I have been using an old Buck Special for all the aforementioned chores attributed to a bushcraft knife... and frankly I have always had misgivings (just not enough to go looking for a replacement). I would very much like to retire that old girl for a spyderco of this design... that traditionally designed one sounds just swell. Can't wait.

Sal

Thank you for the update. Everything seems to be coming together well now, thanx for listening. :)

Ken

sal wrote:Hi Ken.

We've got the blade shape down.

I'm still working on the handle, carving it.

Sal,

While you are thinking about the handle, have you given any thought to re-enforcing the end of the handle?

Because the end of the handle will be struck by a batton to drive the point home, the end of the handle needs a way to transfer the force to the tang. The common way seems to be extending the tang beyond the back of the handle, as in the Bark River Northstar, but if this protrusion is just the end of the tang sticking out a bit from the handle then the handle may be damaged during battoning. For example, if the batton still has the bark on the striking surface, the bit of tang at the end will sink into the surface of the batton and the force will be applied to the tang and the handle scales. Could this cause failure of the scales after a while?

I have the idea that once you have carved the handle to your liking and are happy with the ergonomics, you could slice off the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch of the prototype handle and replace it with a piece of aircraft aluminium that is milled to the exact dimensions of the end piece you just cut off. The tang would rest in a slot cut in the inside of this end cap, attached by pins. The scales would attach to the tang as normal and would be flush to the end cap.

Another metal may be better suited for the end cap. I'm not sure how well aluminum will take to the pounding. It may deform where it contacts the tang and pins. Steel would be sturdy but too heavy, I think.

Also, if you use a hollow pin to fasten the end cap to the tang, this could be used as the lanyard hole, if it is large enough. One less hole to weaken the structure. Current designs that have a lanyard hole cut out of the bit of tang that extends out the end of the handle have had problems with the hole deforming when struck by a batton.

BTW, I also can't wait for this blade to hit the market! Will you post a note here so we can order as soon as posible?

Will you post a note here so we can order as soon as possible?

Given the purpose of this knife I believe it should only be available to real bushcrafters. Sale should be restricted to the remotest parts of woods and forests at least a solid week away from the nearest form of civilization. Maybe afterwards it could become available on some mountains too.

Hi Sean,

thanx for the input. We're still a ways away from a final design. I'm sure the info will hit the forums first. It is another design that has been prompted by forumites.

We've been discussing the concept of a butt effective for pounding without hurting the scales. The best we've come up with is naturally the most expensive to produce.

We'll take any ideas we can get. This is a "group design effort".

sal

I've come in on this thread rather late but thought I would put in my 2 cents worth given that I have given the "Bushcraft" concept some thought of late as IMO the concept is foreign, in many ways, to Australia. "Bushcraft" to me is living in the "bush" and making best of what you have at hand and that includes making bush furniture, living off the bush and being able to make "bushie" repairs to many items including saddlery items. "Bushcraft" as espoused by the Australian writer Ron Edwards goes further then whittling a few tools and bits and pieces.

IMO an outdoor knife besides being able to perform rudimentary wood carving tasks has to be able cut and slice materials such as leather and animal skins, clear grass and vegetation (NB I am not talking of work relevant to a machete) as well as food preparation etc. It seems to me that the design spoken of here is for a "Bushcraft Knife" to meet the requirements of a certain group in Britain and Europe not to design a knife to be used in the bush or outdoors in general. I am not against that it just seems to me that the term "Bushcraft" in this context is somewhat esoteric and could be seen as confusing in other parts of the world just as the use of the "Camp Knife" in North America is not readily understood elsewhere.

For me any knife with a 4" blade of good steel whether a drop point, clip point or spear point with a comfortable point either flat ground or convex ground will do me in the bush anyday.

JDEE

I'm sure that this knife/these knives will be capable of doing exactly what you have described as your requirements in a knife. "Bushcraft knife" is simply a label. :) No matter what part of the world you live in your knife must suit your needs. In the UK and Europe which I believe is the primary "target market" this type of tool is perfect for our needs.

I understand that we have very different environments in Europe to Australia or the USA but surely the point of practicing our outdoor skills wherever we are is to make living outdoors a comfortable and enjoyable experience.

From input on this and other forums I feel that people outside Europe used to carrying "Camp knives", large Skinners or even big Bowies might find this knife very useful.

Cheers, Ken

Ted wrote:About grinds, I used my Fallkniven F1 for some really hard batonning through pretty hard wood (2.5") on my last trip to Scotland. The edge is still pretty OK. I wonder if that's due to the convex grind, where in batonning the edge is only shortly in touch with the wood (only when you start).
With a flat-ground or single-scandi grind, I guess the edge would be under more pressure?
And, I wonder when splitting wood, if the single-bevel-scandi grind would push the blade in one direction and make it difficult to split it in half?
Any comments on that?

I think you may have misunderstood the type of grind we are refering to when we say "single-bevel-scandi grind"

the image below (copied from martyns post) should help make things clearer, the grind on the far right is a "single-bevel-scandi grind":



a quote from Martyn explained his illustration:

A = Concave or hollow grind. Created by grinding on a wheel, different diameter wheels produce differend severities of grind. The smaller the wheel, the deeper the hollow grind. A really big wheel, produces a hollow grind that is *almost* flat. Usually has a small secondary edge bevel, but not always.

B = Full Flat grind. Created by grinding off a flat steel or ceramic platen. The grind goes fully from the spine of the knife, almost to the edge, where it it almost always has a secondary edge bevel (no edge bevel would require sharpeing the entire flat surface of the knife - I've never seen a full flat grind without a secondary edge bevel).

C = Convex grind. Usually created by grinding the steel on a "slack belt". This means no platen, so to some extent the grinding belt deforms to the steel, producing a convex edge (*the same principle as a hoodoo hone). The true full convex grind, doesnt usually have a secondary edge bevel - a grannyB for example.

D = Scandi Grind. Many methods to create this style, but typically, the edge bevels only go 1/3 way up the side of the knife. This creates a very acute or "fat" bevel, which usually does not have a secondary edge bevel. Note the difference in "angle of attack" between this and the full flat grind.
All of these different blade geometries (or combinations of them) produce knives with different characteristics.

UK KEN wrote: I'm sure that this knife/these knives will be capable of doing exactly what you have described as your requirements in a knife. "Bushcraft knife" is simply a label. :) No matter what part of the world you live in your knife must suit your needs. In the UK and Europe which I believe is the primary "target market" this type of tool is perfect for our needs.

JDEE, I agree with Ken, a bushcraft knife is an all-around design. Regarding the terms used, I think that "bushcraft knife" is a particular style of knife -- it doesn't just mean "any knife designed to be used in the bush" -- so to be a bushcraft knife it has to be at least vaguely intended for UK-style bushcrafting. Anything else -- big bowie, whatever -- is a camp knife or whatever else you want to call it. But the term "bushcraft knife" has taken on a particular meaning.

Ken and Joe

My point is and seems to be accepted by your responses the “Bushcraft” Knife has taken on a persona of its own and is a particular style of Knife. Where it once had a generic meaning it is now sectarian in other words the “Bushcraft Knife” is a Specialist Knife.

Whereas the term “bushcraft’ basically meant a knife you took bush walking, camping, canoeing, mountaineering whatever where you needed a knife of a certain size and shape etc to be used for daily tasks and to be used when necessary in the event of something not planned for happening.

I might note here I am not talking about Big Bowies, Camp Knives, Large Tactical Knives or the like. To me such knives are foreign to the bush.

The question I believe that now needs to be answered is what term to do we apply to those knives that don’t meet the “UK-style bushcrafting” standards but were previously generically called “Bushcraft Knives”. I ask this because the rationale and design of what we are now calling “Bushcraft” Knives especially with what appears to me as an over emphasis on wood working is too restrictive.