Mule Team flipping

[Strong-Dog]

Are you serious? The victim's say is their voluntary choice in whether or not they buy the knife! And no, of course Spyderco can't tell people what they can or cannot do with their own property.

You are being disingenous here. In a con, the victim hands over his cash willingly. A con man is still a thief.

In a con, someone is being mislead or lied to in order to extort money. How exactly is selling Mule Teams on eBay misleading the buyer, lying to the buyer, extorting money from the buyer, etc.?

[chuck_roxas45]

In a con, someone is being mislead or lied to in order to extort money. How exactly is selling Mule Teams on eBay misleading the buyer, lying to the buyer, extorting money from the buyer, etc.?

It's not a matter of merely misleading. It's taking advantage of a buyers gullibility or desire or perceived need.

As I mentioned, all you have is the legality of the transaction. The morality is questionable.

Your initial argument was that anti flippers need to be angry at both Spyderco and the buyers. I'm saying no and that the situation results only from the greed of the flipper. Without that greed in the equation, there would be no flipping. Spyderco is hurting nobody with this program, the buyer only hurts himself, the flipper hurts everybody in the market.

What you want to do is to spread the blame away from the flipper's greed. I want to put the blame squarely where it belongs, which is on the flipper's shoulders, and only there. No amount of sophistry on your part will move it from where it belongs.

[Strong-Dog]

In a con, someone is being mislead or lied to in order to extort money. How exactly is selling Mule Teams on eBay misleading the buyer, lying to the buyer, extorting money from the buyer, etc.?

It's not a matter of merely misleading. It's taking advantage of a buyers gullibility or desire or perceived need.

As I mentioned, all you have is the legality of the transaction. The morality is questionable.

Your initial argument was that anti flippers need to be angry at both Spyderco and the buyers. I'm saying no and that the situation results only from the greed of the flipper. Without that greed in the equation, there would be no flipping. Spyderco is hurting nobody with this program, the buyer only hurts himself, the flipper hurts everybody in the market.

Ok, I guess this is the point where we have to agree to disagree. I do always respect a non-attacking conversation, and I didn't mean any harm by calling your economics knowledge into question

[Bodog]

Now, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but out of the 18 Mule team runs, only two of those sold out super quickly. That means that the other 16 runs sat on shelves for a while (the Cobalt Special took what seemed like forever to sell out). That means that 89% of the Mule runs had no problems for people to buy them. Seems like people are making a mountain out of a molehill. The fact that MT19 is still sitting on shelves ought to show that the problems with MT17 and MT18 were fairly isolated events.

The way Spyderco currently sells Mules seems to have worked fairly well in the past, albeit with a couple bumps in the road, but I don't see how making them more expensive with a needlessly complex "solution" will help future runs overall. If anything, the added costs will make the ones sitting on the shelf sit even longer, providing even less incentive for Spyderco to continue the program.

I think people are more worried specifically about the ones that will obviously sell out quickly, like the upcoming Maxamet and 4V models. Those are going to go quickly and no one wants to miss out on a fair chance while seeing someone post 10 of each for sale on ebay and BF within the first week after release.

Some will be obvious big hits, others are a maybe, and others probably not, but those are for the real steel geeks that want to see how well one company processes the same chemical compositions over another, for instance. Let's face it, most don't want to geek out on steels. They want a really good blade made by a company who's not trying to stiff them with insane markups. Some will use them more than others. The whole flipper thing takes out the "no insane markups" aspect. The real geeks, I'm one of them I think, will get the mules that aren't probably so popular just to check them out. But what about the blades with tons of hype? Who's going to get those for the reason the mule team was created? People who just want an exotic steel to put in a drawer? People who only want a collection? Speculators? There's the problem.

In the end, I think Sal saying nothing will change is probably the best long term solution even though I don't really agree with it. It's his house and his generosity. It's best not to argue. I would like to see maybe a Mule Team club where those guys are offered first dibs on orders without any demands of buying specific models. I'd sign up for 20 or 30 bucks a year. 20 bucks per year just to guarantee a shot at the mules if I want. If not, they go into the public sale.

[chuck_roxas45]

Ok, I guess this is the point where we have to agree to disagree. I do always respect a non-attacking conversation, and I didn't mean any harm by calling your economics knowledge into question

Oh yes, we disagreed right from the start, you just tried to convince me to agree with you. :D

Ok, agreeing to disagree. :)

Us Filipinos are very argumentative and we love debates. We argue a lot and often get a bit heated in our discussions here. We like to think we can differentiate between attacks on our position and personal attacks. :D

[Surfingringo]

In a con, someone is being mislead or lied to in order to extort money. How exactly is selling Mule Teams on eBay misleading the buyer, lying to the buyer, extorting money from the buyer, etc.?

It's not a matter of merely misleading. It's taking advantage of a buyers gullibility or desire or perceived need.

As I mentioned, all you have is the legality of the transaction. The morality is questionable.

Your initial argument was that anti flippers need to be angry at both Spyderco and the buyers. I'm saying no and that the situation results only from the greed of the flipper. Without that greed in the equation, there would be no flipping. Spyderco is hurting nobody with this program, the buyer only hurts himself, the flipper hurts everybody in the market.

What you want to do is to spread the blame away from the flipper's greed. I want to put the blame squarely where it belongs, which is on the flipper's shoulders, and only there. No amount of sophistry on your part will move it from where it belongs.

Ok guys, you both have valid points. I am in total agreement with Chuck that what the flippers do is unethical when Spyderco is obviously trying to offer new steels at low prices to get them in the hands of end users at an affordable price. To take advantage of that for a quick buck is completely lame.

However, I'm right there with SD in his views of the free market. And as far as the flippers being the only people to blame? Nah. You can also blame the folks who have to have the latest xyz mule. If folks would just stick to their guns and refuse to allow the flippers to profit then that would end that little business scheme real quick.

[chuck_roxas45]

Ok guys, you both have valid points. I am in total agreement with Chuck that what the flippers do is unethical when Spyderco is obviously trying to offer new steels at low prices to get them in the hands of end users at an affordable price. To take advantage of that for a quick buck is completely lame.

However, I'm right there with SD in his views of the free market. And as far as the flippers being the only people to blame? Nah. You can also blame the folks who have to have the latest xyz mule. If folks would just stick to their guns and refuse to allow the flippers to profit then that would end that little business scheme real quick.

Now that you put it that way Lance, that sounds very reasonable. I am out of the sprint game for a few reasons, not least of which is the unpleasantness that comes with chasing a limited edition.

[Evil D]

LOL the screen name thing was a joke....I figured that was blatantly obvious. Guess not.

Sorry - I didn't realize you were joking :o since I've also heard that option being expressed in the past....... and the proponents of such an approach in those cases were totally serious in their proposition :eek:

I mean, on one hand I do kinda like the idea, but I don't think it should be mandatory.

[Strong-Dog]

The Life cycle of a Mule

1. Spyderco conducts voluntary transaction with metallurgical company to procure the steel for the Mules.

2. Spyderco has ongoing voluntary contracts with it's employees, who manufacture the Mules.

3. Spyderco conducts voluntary transaction with Person A, trading a Mule for a set amount of currency.

4. Person A conducts voluntary transaction with Person B, trading their Mule for a set amount of currency.

5. Person B is happy they have a Mule, and go on to do whatever they want with it.

6. Spyderco Forumites get mad at Person A for conducting a voluntary transaction with Person B.

7. Spyderco Forumites call Person B a victim.


Voluntary Exchange: Voluntary exchange is the act of buyers and sellers freely and willingly engaging in market transactions. Moreover, transactions are made in such a way that both the buyer and the seller perceive that they better off after the exchange than before it occurred, or else the exchange would never have occurred.

[bdblue]

out of the 18 Mule team runs, only two of those sold out super quickly

That's a good point. Some of the discussions about flipping where Sal participated had to do with the green Para2's and not the Mules. Regular users of this forum shouldn't have any problem getting their share of new Mules since they are announced here and there is reliable distribution. The scammers really affect new forum members the most.

[chuck_roxas45]

The Life cycle of a Mule

blah blah

8. Other forumites try to find excuses for the greed of the flipper.

So we're back at taking potshots at each other. :D

[Cliff Stamp]

How exactly is selling Mule Teams on eBay misleading the buyer, lying to the buyer, extorting money from the buyer, etc.?

They are not, they are undermining the intentions of the original seller, in fact a claim could be made of fraud, and stopping them from achieving their goal and substituting it with theirs. Consider this situation :

I have a surplus of chickens, had a really good year on the farm and decide to give away 25 butchered chickens to those in need who are struggling to provide the basic necessities for their families. I put up a notice, anyone who needs a little more chicken on the table, please stop by and pick up one or even two if you have a big family - no need to go hungry this week!

Now supposed you stop by and have all your friends stop by and pick up all the chickens and then you go to a busy part of town and sell them at a nice profit. You are not doing anything wrong to the people you sell to. But a case could be made that you are to the actual customers I intended to reach and a case can be made you are committing fraud by representing yourself as something you are not.

The problem is how can Spyderco clarify the market and actually enforce it?

Imagine for example that in order to buy your first mule you had to show a commitment to evaluating steels in posts/blogs. When you bought a Mule you had to do the same with that Mule to be able to buy another one. This way the Mules do fulfill their original purpose and when you have made that post / done that work well then you can see the used knife if you want as the original purpose is met. If you buy more than one Mule then you actually have to use all of them in some kind of comparative trial, if you don't, well you can't buy another Mule.

Now is this perfect, no. Are there ways to exploit it - sure, just like there are ways to exploit any kind of exclusive contract. For example lots of people who want discounts on custom knives get their friends who are first responders/military to buy them knives to bypass the custom knife makers wishes. There is nothing you can do to stop someone so determined to go against your wishes unless you want to meet each customer and do some kind of personal vetting. However, a simple filter can catch a lot of the flippers and force them to seek easier fishing waters.

[QUICKSILVER]

Let us find ways to make the system work better. I think a pre-order period would improve the current system. I want to purchase every mule at a reasonable price and a well structured pre-order period could meet my need. I think it would meet the needs of most of us.

Some ideas include:
1) a wait between payment and releasing mules
2) a nonrefundable deposit
3) a pre-order period before the steel is announced
4) a mule team club like the spyderco collectors club.
None of these would require production changes. They would simply require modifications to the buying process. All of them will increase the risk for flippers but be a small cost for those of us who wish to buy every mule.

How would you structure such a system?

Bill Maier

[WorkingEdge]

It's Sal's fault. Too good a product at too low a price. And no, I'm not asking for a price hike.

I agree with Chuck about shame and it should come from the most respected person here.

Without causing too much hassle to Spyderco or increasing cost, perhaps a short preface by Sal to reiterate the Mule's intent and add a little shame to those planning to flip these knives in the release announcements will decrease the problem.

[Evil D]

Man I tell ya what, you guys are definitely all working towards one goal. Before you know it the whole project will be gone to save everyone the headache. You guys are chasing your tails and not accomplishing anything but wasting bandwidth.

[chuck_roxas45]

Man I tell ya what, you guys are definitely all working towards one goal. Before you know it the whole project will be gone to save everyone the headache. You guys are chasing your tails and not accomplishing anything but wasting bandwidth.

Good thing I don't buy knives anymore. :D

[Bile Bob]

[hunterseeker5]

How about a simpler fix, something which will require minimal increased effort on Spyderco's part?

So lets exclude the basic market approach, which is to either A) remove the scarcity of the product to drive down prices (make more mules) or B) remove some of the perception of scarcity (state that mule runs are no longer one-time or exclusive, so anyone who payed top dollar to a scalper might be SOL because another run of some super desirable mule may be coming out from Spyderco again and can be had for retail)

So all Spyders (at least mules) need to have their logo lasered on right? Adding a serial number therefore would be fairly easy. Now each mule is individually identifiable.

Spyderco, if memory serves, has had sales where purchases are linked to individual forum accounts. And spyderco of course has the perfect platform to publish information relevant to us.

If you limit it to say 2 mules per person, and you have to have a spyder forum account to buy and you were to publish a list of who (forum names so you don't violate anyone's privacy) bought what serial number (you'd need to be up-front about this at the time of purchase) it'd be trivial to track who was scalping mules.

Of course, it might be easier to just start with a simple check box on checkout where you have to agree to terms stating that you do not intend to flip your mule. Maybe it wouldn't dissuade anyone, but people tend to be honest and it would be easy enough to implement.

[tvenuto]

The Life cycle of a Mule

blah blah

8. Other forumites try to find excuses for the greed of the flipper.

So we're back at taking potshots at each other. :D

No, chuck, if you were taking potshots, you would have said: "As someone who has previously circumvented a distributor's units per customer policy, you'll have to excuse us for not taking your arguments at face value."

[chuck_roxas45]

The Life cycle of a Mule

blah blah

8. Other forumites try to find excuses for the greed of the flipper.

So we're back at taking potshots at each other. :D

No, chuck, if you were taking potshots, you would have said: "As someone who has previously circumvented a distributor's units per customer policy, you'll have to excuse us for not taking your arguments at face value."

Haha, there we go. :D