Thoughts on Ankerson's cut testing results

[demoncase]

So.......Did we get down to what is the best edge and best steel then? :)

I believe the conclusion was Chinese 420J2 with the faux Damascus screenprint at 46 HRC, 12° inclusive (no microbevel) finished at 60 grit.

The one with the plastic staghorn handles and wobbly liner lock?- Awesome, I'm replacing all my Spydercos post haste and forthwith! :D

[Cliff Stamp]

Am I really going to notice that my otherwise decently sharpened and robust mid-range Spyderco is not at the absolute outer limit of ultimate scientifically proven sharpness?

Are you going to be able to notice an otherwise decently sharpened and robust $5 import is not at the absolute limit of ultimate scientifically proven sharpness?

I like to hand write letters, if you do then you are likely to develop an appreciation for paper and how it takes ink or pencil lead and even buy specific papers for specific pens and pencils. Can you notice it, yes, would everyone, probably not.

Two large influences on my sharpening came from R. J. Martin and Spyderco. Spyderco because I could consistently measure sharpness on Spyderco knives which were higher than any other knife brand (even maker) that I saw, and R. J. Martin because of how he talked about sharpness/sharpness .

As a result of them and others my knives are far sharper now than they used to be, but practically how much of a real benefit it debatable. However once you start making that point you always end up in the same place : $5 machetes, kitchen knives and folders.

[DougC-3]

So.......Did we get down to what is the best edge and best steel then? :)

I believe the conclusion was Chinese 420J2 with the faux Damascus screenprint at 46 HRC, 12° inclusive (no microbevel) finished at 60 grit.

The one with the plastic staghorn handles and wobbly liner lock?- Awesome, I'm replacing all my Spydercos post haste and forthwith! :D

I would like the left handed RIL model with rhinestone inlays.

[sal]

Two large influences on my sharpening came from R. J. Martin and Spyderco.

Careful Cliff. You don't want to sound like a shill. :p

sal

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Life without humor is no fun

[Cliff Stamp]

Careful Cliff. You don't want to sound like a shill. :p

Ha, I am openly biased, but my partner keeps me honest as they really are not concerned about pointing it out.

[demoncase]

Am I really going to notice that my otherwise decently sharpened and robust mid-range Spyderco is not at the absolute outer limit of ultimate scientifically proven sharpness?

Are you going to be able to notice an otherwise decently sharpened and robust $5 import is not at the absolute limit of ultimate scientifically proven sharpness?

I like to hand write letters, if you do then you are likely to develop an appreciation for paper and how it takes ink or pencil lead and even buy specific papers for specific pens and pencils. Can you notice it, yes, would everyone, probably not.

Two large influences on my sharpening came from R. J. Martin and Spyderco. Spyderco because I could consistently measure sharpness on Spyderco knives which were higher than any other knife brand (even maker) that I saw, and R. J. Martin because of how he talked about sharpness/sharpness .

As a result of them and others my knives are far sharper now than they used to be, but practically how much of a real benefit it debatable. However once you start making that point you always end up in the same place : $5 machetes, kitchen knives and folders.

I was making a comment on the superfluity that the discussion has taken on- If we've gone from a scientific discussion based on data and confidence therein, back to a position of 'well, it's debatable' then we've come full circle since post one, for my money....Many posts of people poking holes in their understanding, the tests, the figures and all the baggage that comes with it, we aren't really any further forward.

I'm not trying to be obtuse or awkward....If you (and I) are talking about there being no discernible improvement in practical application from a 'good' edge to a 'perfect' edge, and the average user probably won't notice the difference, then we're into the realm of the purely academic- Interesting, for a given value of interest and those interested, but largely irrelevant for the most of us for the most part.

I 100% concede your point about on the $5 junkers being where you go if all you care about is an edge- but I submit that I'm here on this board because Spyderco's products are so much more than just an edge- I mean, there's a hole there for a start, before we talk about other stuff.

That's just my two-pen'north on the subject and not a dismissal of the work you (and several others) have posted.....

[Cliff Stamp]

I 100% concede your point about on the $5 junkers being where you go if all you care about is an edge- but I submit that I'm here on this board because Spyderco's products are so much more than just an edge- I mean, there's a hole there for a start, before we talk about other stuff. ;)

I have been fairly open about the fact why I support Spyderco and it isn't simply because on the knife performance. I got into "high end" knives in the 90's, had troubles with a few folding knives, out of all the manufactures, the only one to actually contact me to discuss it was Spyderco (Military lock).

I never did get the issue resolved (I white knuckle fail a lot of liner locks), but I don't care about that as much as the attempt was made. That viewpoint has been consistent in the last 15+ years. I have tried folders from many other companies, Buck, Benchmade, Reeve, ZT, etc. and there is a pretty big difference between how one handles an issue vs the other.

Hence why I still carry :



Even though an argument could be made that I have other "better" knives. I have lots of knives, but I almost always carry a Spyderco and while they do work as knives, the main reason I carry them is because of how Sal acts.

[ChrisinHove]

I have a good friend who did a zoology degree. For one thesis he studied the effect of light upon aphids, and ran hundreds about in a glass box, one at a time, day after day, for weeks.

His results were, to his surprise and dismay, completely random, and far from what a gardener would know from casual observation, much less a commercial market gardener, with acres of glass houses and a strong financial stake. He could see no obvious result, conclusion, or sense.

As a last resort he presented his off-the-wall results to his tutor. Enquiry into his methodology was undertaken. It turned out he had used a thin paintbrush to pick each aphid up and place it within his apparatus. And licked it occasionally to moisten it.

What he had inadvertently researched was in fact to toxicity of human saliva to aphids, against which his results achieved some meaning.

My point is; research doesn't neccessarily give you what you think you're going to get. Meaningful results can also occur inadvertently in unexpected directions.

And that knowledge gleaned by experience, or the gardener and market gardener, is just as valid.

That's how I look at all your testing results and the ensuing debates, anyway: "not better, but different" if you like.

[Stuart Ackerman]

There was a result...now to persuade the better half to spit on her garden in random places...

[Johnnie1801]

There was a result...now to persuade the better half to spit on her garden in random places...

I think when the All Blacks lose on Saturday you'll all be spitting mad :D

[Screwdriver]

I personally would take any test done by hand to be suspect. There are just too many variables.

[FarmerTed]

I personally would take any test done by hand to be suspect. There are just too many variables.

Isn't that why they have CATRA?

[FarmerTed]

I personally would take any test done by hand to be suspect. There are just too many variables.

Isn't that why they have CATRA?

[sal]

CATRA is very consistent and gives us much information, but we believe the CATRA tests must be part of a real world testing program as well. That's why I appreciate hearing about the tests made by everyone.

sal

[Ankerson]

CATRA is very consistent and gives us much information, but we believe the CATRA tests must be part of a real world testing program as well. That's why I appreciate hearing about the tests made by everyone.

sal

Hi Sal,

Nothing like real world testing and feedback to compare to. :)

The more data points the better I think.

Jim

[Bodog]

Out of curiosity, how does cutting cardboard or rope differ from CATRA results? Wouldn't real life feedback consist of sloppy cutting, environmental differences, or whatever other variables that cannot be adequately measured by CATRA? Please forgive my ignorance if I can't see a difference between a controlled test for cutting soft, abrasive, materials and another controlled test for cutting soft, yet abrasive materials.

[Ankerson]

Out of curiosity, how does cutting cardboard or rope differ from CATRA results? Wouldn't real life feedback consist of sloppy cutting, environmental differences, or whatever other variables that cannot be adequately measured by CATRA? Please forgive my ignorance if I can't see a difference between a controlled test for cutting soft, abrasive, materials and another controlled test for cutting soft, yet abrasive materials.

CATRA is machine testing so there isn't any side loading that would be introduced by hand testing along with the other variables.

Only so much one can really control doing things by hand, people can remove a lot, but not everything.

[nccole]

Out of curiosity, how does cutting cardboard or rope differ from CATRA results? Wouldn't real life feedback consist of sloppy cutting, environmental differences, or whatever other variables that cannot be adequately measured by CATRA? Please forgive my ignorance if I can't see a difference between a controlled test for cutting soft, abrasive, materials and another controlled test for cutting soft, yet abrasive materials.

Your questioning explains exactly why I appreciate all types of testing. CATRA is nice, but it is unobtainably controlled. Even Jim's rope testing (for my haphazard approach to knife usage) is too controlled. Although it is nice to eliminate those variables and test apples to apples it is nice to also compile real world experiences. That is where I think Jim does a great job of doing his controlled mainly abrasion type testing with rope, but then he cuts cardboard and wood and gives feedback. Those three together give a decent sample of real world testing. Maybe throw some zip ties in there and that represents the majority of what most guys are cutting.

[Ankerson]

Out of curiosity, how does cutting cardboard or rope differ from CATRA results? Wouldn't real life feedback consist of sloppy cutting, environmental differences, or whatever other variables that cannot be adequately measured by CATRA? Please forgive my ignorance if I can't see a difference between a controlled test for cutting soft, abrasive, materials and another controlled test for cutting soft, yet abrasive materials.

Your questioning explains exactly why I appreciate all types of testing. CATRA is nice, but it is unobtainably controlled. Even Jim's rope testing (for my haphazard approach to knife usage) is too controlled. Although it is nice to eliminate those variables and test apples to apples it is nice to also compile real world experiences. That is where I think Jim does a great job of doing his controlled mainly abrasion type testing with rope, but then he cuts cardboard and wood and gives feedback. Those three together give a decent sample of real world testing. Maybe throw some zip ties in there and that represents the majority of what most guys are cutting.

Thanks. :)

The cardboard can get crazy, like in the past few knives I tested, 2 in CPM 10V and over a Mile of cardboard each and both could have kept going for a very long yet.

The rope isn't quite as bad as I stop at 20 LBS of down force, it just takes awhile and between breaks it can be over a few days event for the high carbide steels and much shorter for the low alloy as they tend to lose bite pretty fast.

The wood isn't really a big deal, mainly testing edge strength there so it's usually short.

[Bodog]

How long would those edges have lasted while push cutting versus another type of steel? I'm honestly curious