elena86 wrote:Yesterday, for the first time, I dissasembeled a Sebenza(my small plain 21).I only wish Spyderco released a model with a pivot bushing a la Sebenza.But AFAIK that implies very tight tolerances.Speaking of tolerances, which Spyderco model do you think has the most tight tolerances ?
Out of the Spyderco knives I've had I was the most impressed with the Manix2. The Manix2 has a bushing as the pivot pin compared to a more common pin with a screw at one or both ends. With the bushing you can't tighten the pivot beyond what the bushing will allow. I had my pivot screws tightened as tight as possible and the blade still would swing back and forth when the lock buttons are pulled back. The important fact is that while the blade moves freely with no resistance from a tight pivot there is still no blade play at all. Not when open and locked and not when the blade is swinging freely either. The tolerance in manufacturing on this knife has to be as close to perfect as I can imagine for the blade to move as easy as it does and still have NO blade play. I have gotten other knives to swing as freely and still have no blade play but they were adjusted this way by me. With the Manix2 there was no adjustment. Just tighten the screws and you're done. I COULDN'T tighten the pivot enough to hold the blade in place like I can most other knives I've had. This requires VERY tight tolerances IMO.
Spyderco knives have sufficient tolerances as production knives for performance sake. Like most things in life the last 10-20% is going to cost you multiple times more money.
Sal said once that if they built a knife in the same method as CR the price would be similar. I venture to think the opposite would be the same. There are Spyderco knives that are priced not far from a Sebenza but the costs are in different places (types and quantities of materials), often people forget the philosophy that created the tool itself and just look at the price tag.
I've owned a few Sebenzas over the past decade and consider it the yardstick knife when considering other knives. The bushing is a thing of beauty, but I've experienced a few Sebs develop the very slightest hint of side to side play. You wouldn't even notice it more times than not, but I think it comes from a very slight amount of wear on the washers creating a difference of thickness between the bushing and blade/washers. I did receive one Seb(new from dealer) with this hint of play. It was quickly returned for a perfect specimen without issue. I often wonder if CRK decided to move away from the bushing with the 25 due in part to the difficulty of maintaining this very high level of tolerance. Makers like Grayman offer a bushing, but seem to have a number of their knives come from the maker with side to side play, based on quickly looking at posts on different forums. The Manix 2 has a bushing system offered as well, but blade play has been mentioned at times. I think the bushing is neat, but not the be all for me. It seems to an area where things can go wrong if not perfectly executed.
flipe8 wrote:I've owned a few Sebenzas over the past decade and consider it the yardstick knife when considering other knives. The bushing is a thing of beauty, but I've experienced a few Sebs develop the very slightest hint of side to side play. You wouldn't even notice it more times than not, but I think it comes from a very slight amount of wear on the washers creating a difference of thickness between the bushing and blade/washers. I did receive one Seb(new from dealer) with this hint of play. It was quickly returned for a perfect specimen without issue. I often wonder if CRK decided to move away from the bushing with the 25 due in part to the difficulty of maintaining this very high level of tolerance. Makers like Grayman offer a bushing, but seem to have a number of their knives come from the maker with side to side play, based on quickly looking at posts on different forums. The Manix 2 has a bushing system offered as well, but blade play has been mentioned at times. I think the bushing is neat, but not the be all for me. It seems to an area where things can go wrong if not perfectly executed.
Great post. I think when the tolerances are so tight on folding knifes with bushings this eliminates the feature of adjusting the pivot to your desires. I don't like a blade to swing back and forth when the lock is released. I prefer it to NOT swing freely. That leaves the edge swinging around looking for a finger. Knives with bushing and perfect tolerances perform great but I can't adjust the pivot tension to my likes/dislikes. We all have different things that are important to us. Some HATE for the blade to be off center when closed. This isn't a big deal for me as long as the blade doesn't touch either liner. OTOH, blade play is something I hate. I'd rather be able to tighten the pivot to my desires by using a pivot pin with no bushing. Just use a pin with the same outside diameter from one end to the other. In addition to this allowing me to get the pivot adjusted to my desires it seems to me that would be less expensive to design and manufacture. Of course I know nothing about the manufacturing costs. Also, over time and wear the standard pin will allow for adjusting the tension as wear occurs IMO.
Blerv wrote:Spyderco knives have sufficient tolerances as production knives for performance sake. Like most things in life the last 10-20% is going to cost you multiple times more money.
Sal said once that if they built a knife in the same method as CR the price would be similar. I venture to think the opposite would be the same. There are Spyderco knives that are priced not far from a Sebenza but the costs are in different places (types and quantities of materials), often people forget the philosophy that created the tool itself and just look at the price tag.
I am guessing about this, but I am thinking that there could be situations where I want slightly looser tolerances on a knife. If I need the knife in an emergency situation, and I drop it on a hard surface, or it somehow gets full of grit, extremely tight manufacturing tolerances could mean a folder that is now a paperweight because it is jammed shut. I know that this is true in the gun world. If I'm shooting a benchrest competition, then I want a super tight match grade pistol. If I'm going into combat, I want a Glock, or a GI 1911, that are intentionally fitted loose so that they will still cycle if you pour them full of sand.
A sharp knife is a pleasure to carry. Five or six sharp knives are an even greater pleasure.
Trout Hound wrote:I am guessing about this, but I am thinking that there could be situations where I want slightly looser tolerances on a knife. If I need the knife in an emergency situation, and I drop it on a hard surface, or it somehow gets full of grit, extremely tight manufacturing tolerances could mean a folder that is now a paperweight because it is jammed shut. I know that this is true in the gun world. If I'm shooting a benchrest competition, then I want a super tight match grade pistol. If I'm going into combat, I want a Glock, or a GI 1911, that are intentionally fitted loose so that they will still cycle if you pour them full of sand.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think this applies to knives in the same degree if at all. Has anyone actually have this happen with a Seb or something similar that wouldn't have happened with a Spydie in the same situation that can give insight? Because I have never heard of this before.
Trout Hound wrote:I am guessing about this, but I am thinking that there could be situations where I want slightly looser tolerances on a knife. If I need the knife in an emergency situation, and I drop it on a hard surface, or it somehow gets full of grit, extremely tight manufacturing tolerances could mean a folder that is now a paperweight because it is jammed shut. I know that this is true in the gun world. If I'm shooting a benchrest competition, then I want a super tight match grade pistol. If I'm going into combat, I want a Glock, or a GI 1911, that are intentionally fitted loose so that they will still cycle if you pour them full of sand.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think this applies to knives in the same degree if at all. Has anyone actually have this happen with a Seb or something similar that wouldn't have happened with a Spydie in the same situation that can give insight? Because I have never heard of this before.
I don't think that tight tolerances in a knife could be a problem in those situations against a "looser tolerances" one, probably the opposite. Anyway if reliability is your watchword then a fixed blade is the solution.
I used to be quicker to talk ill (not on these forums ever as requested by Sal) of mid-tech/semi-custom makers. The idea of paying two or three times a Sage2 for "essentially the same knife" was mind-boggling.
My current feeling is that while the Sage2 and similar knives are slam-dunk F&F winners they are lacking the finishing (or prep) of many mid-tech knives, especially compared to knives that Chris Reeves has produced. And...they should be! The Sage2 and small Sebenza use similar materials (quality and quantity) down to a few cents. That means if they cost a same theoretical $50 in materials (total dumb guess), the Spyderco has a fraction of the labor time allotted before it has to be boxed and sold at a profit. The same Sebenza can spend HOURS longer at the lapping machine, grinding wheel, and every other machine along the way that measures and polishes parts. That and of course some places like Hinderer, CR, and Strider have a fraction of the products either in R&D or full production. Try changing hats two dozen times and watch the learning curve drive you mad.
While there is some fluff in the pricing between a Porsche and a Chevrolet much of the expense is in the details. If your only goal is to set records on the Nürburgring or at the local drag strip the Chevrolet is just as capable. That doesn't mean it should be "the same" as that's unfair to Chevrolet and somewhat insulting to Porsche. If after holding both knives you determine there is no difference and it's simply one maker charging more money, I venture to think justification/ego is preventing careful scrutiny or it's just something your eye is unable to see (like tolerances as tight as 2.5 microns).
Chris Reeve certainly consistently holds some of the tightest tolerances in the industry. That is their forte and they are very good at it.
Bushings are a PITA. Much time, we tried them and decided that they were not worth the cost to our customer. While we hold very close tolerance, our forte is design and high performance materials. We provide many new models per year, both in-house and outside designs. We believe that is what our customers expect of us. We work with many collaborators which is both interesting and fun.
I believe our stepped Ti Chappy and stealth Chappy demonstrate exceptional machining, but also offers ergos, materials and quality. Our Native 5 also shows very close tolerances. Each maker has their offering to their market.
I agree with the poster who said Spyderco, to him, represented a happy balance of affordibility and precision. Like Blerv said, the tolerances are sufficient for performance. That argument can go both ways (where's the minimum line of "sufficient"), but I don't think anyone would disagree that Spyderco knives are well built.
There are various levels of tolerances present within Spyderco's line up, and I for one appreciate that. If I want a FRN user, I can get that at a price point and level of precision and build quality I'm happy with. If I want a nice Ti pocket knife built tighter, well, Spyderco makes those too.
The Deacon wrote:It's a pocket knife. From a purely practical standpoint, how tight do tolerances have to be? I'm not using it to plot a course from "point A" to some tiny island 5000 miles away. I'm not trying to hit a dime size target at 100 yards or score 300 on the National Match Course with it. I'm not expecting it to keep in sync with an atomic clock. As long as I can't hear the blade rattling in my back pocket while walking down the street, it's pretty much good to go.
Nicely said... well... actually... written! :)
Spyderco WTC #1044
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana, The Life of Reason: The Phases of Human Progress, 1905 to 1906
