Spyderco/Farid K2

[Ankerson]

OK, the question is why? I'm interested in the K2 for a few reasons... I like the pattern, I like the FFG, I'm always looking for a new potential Spyderco to purchase, I like that you can get your finger close to the edge of the K2 without a finger choil, 10V is an exotic steel.

Good reasons to get one that's for sure.

I think my initial issues with this knife are... might be bigger than I would want to carry, probably more money than I want to pay for a non-power tool, I'm not sure if I like the metal handles (I don't usually wear gloves) is this a good blade steel... it's exotic but does that mean it's good?

I find the following exchange interesting...


It's a high performance tool for all applications and yet...
- Probably not a good choice as a hunting knife
- Probably not a good choice for cutting fruit

Based on comments from posters here...
- Probably not a good choice for cutting dirty material

So, what is 10V a good choice for? Cutting clean cardboard and paper? Do you guys do a lot of that? Is that why many of you have "have waited for it with baited breath."

Well 10V is a tool steel 1st and for most and assuming a proper HT and tempering process it's not chippy or brittle.

You can do anything with 10V that one would consider doing with steels like S30V, M390 etc and not expect to have any issues using a folder or a similar sized fixed blade.

10V can cut anything such as fruit or dirty materials and it's an excellent steel for hunting, cleaning game, skinning, butchering etc.

It's not stainless, but it's not a rust magnet either and it will develop a dark grey patina if you let it.

What's 10V good for?

Anything you would want to cut with a knife using a knife as a knife not as a pry bar, cold chisel, screwdriver or any other type of gross abuse. Not exactly a brittle steel, we are talking about a folder here not a 1/4" thick heavy duty fixed blade that's has pry bar geometry. Although 10V can be used in those types of knives if one wants, would be overkill for those types of uses though as there are cheaper steels that are easier to work with and easier to get.

So if someone wants a folder that will hold and edge for an extremely long time compared to the more normal lower alloy steels and likes the K2 than it would be a win.

Without having one in hand I can't say more, but I do know a lot about CPM 10V (A11) and it's attributes.

Actually there is a custom maker that will be making a large thick field knife in 10V that I will be testing in the future, I will be beating it like I did all the other heavy duty knives in the past. That's going to be a lot of fun to see how far I can push it...... That is abuse the heck out of it..... One of those if I break it or damage it oh well type of tests......:D

If a person wants a knuckle dragger, ham fisted redneck beater knife for throwing into rocks or whatever type of knife I would recommend A2 or S7 from a good custom maker.

Hey you all watch this type of knife.... :rolleyes:

[Cliff Stamp]

That being the case Cliff then was not happy with the fact that people were saying good things about the knife without handling it and testing it.

To be clear, I was pointing out there was a double standard in that people could praise the knife without handling it and there were no issues, but if someone asked a question then it was argued that was unreasonable. This is promotional bias, nothing more.

He then wanted a full and complete disclosure on the reasoning behind it's design.

I believe that is a reasonable question yes, not just about knives but in general anyone selling or promoting a product should be expected to answer it. In fact in Canada you are legally obligated to do a lot more than that, laws differ in other Countries. In fact I would bet that if Farid asked a similar question to an abrasive manufacturer he would not be satisfied with "our products speak for themselves" if he asked them which abrasive would work best on a given steel, belt times, glazing/wear rates, etc. . .

I know I have never asked a technical rep those types of questions and got answers similar to "buy our product if you want to know". They will readily drown you in information on request because they know exactly what their product was designed to do and the how/why behind it in great detail. I just asked a rep today about lithium silicate densifiers and within minutes I had TDS sheets, application instructions and just reams of data coming at me as well as detailed conversations on when and when not to apply them vs topical treatments.

If I ask makers like Keffler, Harris, Gavko, Calton, etc. a question about why they did this/that, I literally have to ask them to stop talking. Keffler made an entire video on handles and why he does what he does after I asked him about it and noted I didn't understand the reason why his handle behaved like it did. Kyley makes video's all the time when people ask about designs. Not only isn't it unreasonable to ask makers why they do things, there are many of them that will gladly tell you in great detail. Will everyone - no, but I will at least give people the opportunity to answer rather than just assume they won't and if I am going to criticize someone I will do it in their forum where they can see and respond to it.

Apparently Cliff also owns a Farid knife, a CPM-121 Rex Mule. Although on the youtube video where you gave it a bad review, you said "thanks to Francis for letting me have a look at it".
You mean after you said it was badly designed, too thick, bad grinds, needed a tapered tang, and sniggering through half of the review etc, etc, you actually went out and bought one?

Yes I bought one, yes I made whatever comments I have made in video's posts on it. Yes some of the comments are critical of the design and the execution, many of them you can find repeated in commentary from others on the same knife (grind/thickness, low initial sharpness, etc.) .

If you a problem with the knife, don't buy it. If however you have a problem with Farid, take it up with him instead of disrespecting a very nice Spyderco/Farid collaboration knife that many of us have waited for, and unlike you will actually go out, buy and use.

What exactly in the above did I say which was disrespecting the knife, maker or manufacturer?

[Ankerson]

If one has any doubts about CPM 10V they can read my more recent review and test of my Darrin Sanders custom in Z-A11....

It's one heck of a a lot thinner blade stock than the K2 with around the same behind the edge thickness... Think SAK blade geometry as it matches it....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... A11-Steel-(CPM-10V" target="_blank)-Full-Review

[MCM]

Will be picking one of these up, thanks for getting this together.
Is it tip down carry only?
Thanks!

[Laethageal]

Look at the picture before asking easy questions like this :)
Tip down only.

[Nate]

Aesthetically, I like the look of K2 collab a great deal. When Mr. Blonde posted his pics of it after Amsterdam meet I even started a K2 thread because I found it so appealling, just to have such a honking big folder with such a clean design... I am sure it will be a great success. At the time, I did not know anything about 10v.

I appreciate Johnnie18?? digging up that quote from Phil Wilson on 10v a few pages back, and Phil too, for weighing in again . I like the way he explains why he also works with these high carbide steels.

For my part, I'm kind of split between a user and a collector. The knives I tend to use the most often are cheap, easy to sharpen, and increasingly, thin behind the edge. On the other hand, I also get a kick out of buying and trying and owning a variety of styles and steels. 

I've been following Cliff's work for a while now, casually. He actually makes a lot of sense too. Based on rumors around the forums when I was newb, I thought he was some kind of deranged were-sasquatch out to destroy knifmakers. 


Actually reading what he has to say though, he never says that any steels are good or bad in general, he always asks how you want the knife to perform, what will you use it for, how will you sharpen, etc... I truly believe he is only interested in sharing knowledge and continuing to learn.

I watched the 121REX mule video, here are my "Cliff's Notes," lol.

Cliff:


"I have mule by Farid. It is a very nice and interesting knife that I want to love. I commend the maker for working with ths exotic, expensive, difficult to grind steel so that I can test. But please Farid make such a mule so that it has a distal taper and a high flat grind to a thin (.010" or better, I assume) edge so that it is even higher performance in cutting for my tests (and in regular use) as well as easier to maintain/sharpen."


Obvious paraphrasing aside, I didn't feel that Cliff meant any offense in his video. He does make critical points, but the intent seems constructive. I for one am glad that the Spyderized K2 has a ffg and distal taper... I am guessing it will be .02"+ behind the edge though, due to market considerations. 

[Stuart Ackerman]

Very sensible and level headed post, Apophis...

[Laethageal]

I don't know if I'm going to be able to afford one, but if I do, for sure I'm gonna thin it to .006-.008 to see how it fare. Anything over that thickness behind the edge is pretty much a waste of cutting ability with no real gain for the kind of daily use I have.

[Cliff Stamp]

... for sure I'm gonna thin it to .006-.008 to see how it fare.

Do you do that manually? If so with what?

Based on rumors around the forums when I was newb, I thought he was some kind of deranged were-sasquatch out to destroy knifmakers. 

Only on the weekends.

... I didn't feel that Cliff meant any offense in his video.

Here is that part I find a little amusing and really odd, how can people really argue I am so timid I would only imply/hint/circle around saying something and make posts about trying to "read between the lines" and argue that I meant to say/do something. Really, does that make sense to anyone, even on a basic level that is absurd. If you ask me a question here, on the forum I run, in email, or in person, you get the same answer and it means what it means, I don't imply or state rumors. If you want to know my perspective on something you just have to ask and it doesn't matter where you ask it. The most I have said about Farid recently is when people were arguing what his answers to questions implied about his knowledge about knives (in a negative manner). I noted that I don't believe English is Farid's first language and if you are speaking not in your native language about a technical subject then it can easily lead to basic mistakes which doesn't mean you don't understand the question/answer, it just means translation is really difficult. Just look at how often even native English speakers mix up things like grain size vs carbide size or talk about steel molecules, etc. . Parse all of that through a translator and watch what comes out. Here is The Gayle Bradley gone away from English and back :

Silk blade is hollow - ended the field crucible steel CPM M4. M4 make good the original name as a tool steel with high resistance of the effect . Includes a copy in the crucible of CPM powder metal manufacturing process with M4 creating a high , consistent steel structure of grain increases its resistance " already impressive effect even more. Has modified the drop point blade also reduce the weight swedge located at the spine.

The handle is twill carbon fiber / G - 10 coated with Michael Walker LinerLock to safely and securely lock up while adding a refined, Nabil . Within two years the entire length of the internal lines , adding toughness to deal with this construction along screw- modification or cleaning . There Quad hourglass clip lets you choose to perform the file; - Tip up / top - down, left / right -handed.

Now if you listen to someone saying that it sounds odd. Really the blade is made out of hollow silk and has high resistance of the effect and you can use the clip like a file? I simply noted to relax when trying to interpret someone knows what they are talking about from what is written because not everyone speaks English as their native language, languages are pretty wonky in how they work, they all work differently and technical terms sometimes do not translate well at all and if you go away from and back to a language then what can come out can be pretty odd.

--

It is a knife, a little perspective is required. Trying to argue that questions and criticisms of a product are somehow disrespectful is taking on a tone of some kind of religious sanctity and again, the same makers/manufacturers do not in general hold back on criticizing products they use to make knives. If you think what I have said about Farid is somehow disrespectful then start looking at what knifemakers say about various grinders, abrasives, glues, handle materials etc. . Where is all the condemnation of that commentary? It isn't difficult to see knifemakers describe things as completely useless, junk, never buy it, etc. . And no one says a word - is that some kind of privilege that only they have? It is an irrational and biased argument.

I talk about the knife (any knife) in the exact same way I would talk about the Faber-Castell TK Fine Vario L pencil if someone asked about it. Many of the design aspects I would argue are very positive but both the OHTO Super Promecha PM-1500P and the Pentel GraphGear 1000 both are superior in various aspects. Which one is "better" depends on what attributes you give importance to. I carry the Pentel a lot because it is decent in most respects and has a very simple retraction mechanism which prevents the sleeve from being damaged if you drop it which is really easy on 0.2 and 0.3 mm pencils. At my desk I use the OHTO has I don't need the sleeve protection and I find the grip more comfortable/secure. The OHTO is fairly fragile in the main body (people have complained of breaking it in half with mild impacts like rolling over with it in their pocket) but it isn't a durability limit for me practically.

[faridknives]

To CLiff Stamp,



'I noted that I don't believe English is Farid's first language'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it insulting and distasteful that someone with the name Cliff Stamp would make a comment like this, I have lived in England most of my life, English is my language, and also further more I will never answer your questions CLiff , not now not ever...

The 10V K2 is what it is and don't need anymore explanation, it is your choice to buy it or not, but we all know you are getting your free sample, don't we ???

[Cliff Stamp]

I find it insulting and distasteful that someone with the name Cliff Stamp would make a comment like this, I have lived in England most of my life, English is my language...

Stamp is my adopted name, my birth name is Parsons which originates from the Anglo-Saxon culture. Not that means anything relevant, just a note. As I suspected, you are not reacting to what I say but a perception of it. As noted in the above there was an argument made that your responses here showed a lack of understanding of knife design because of how you responded to technical questions. I made a note that argument was not necessarily valid because technical terms are easily confused in translation and you can't simply assume everyone speaks English as a native language. You looked at that and were offended at what I wrote, not the argument which claimed you didn't understand knife design which I opposed. As I suspected, you have a predisposition which is causing you to interpret anything as insulting, so be it, your life.

[WorkingEdge]

I have always appreciated the candid responses from Cliff. Never viewed his posts as personal attacks on people. I find that I learn the most from threads like this, containing posts from Cliff, Jim, The Mastiff, and Sal and Phil Wilson.
As for the K2, would love to try some 10v but in a smaller package. As a "small time" knife nut, the size of this one scares me. I do appreciate Spyderco once again pushing into new frontiers. Way to go!

[Johnnie1801]

Guy's, let's get back to discussing Farid's knife and forget all the blame and bluster. We are all knife enthusiasts here and it doesn't serve any good to get into spats. The K2 is an elegant knife with an interesting blade steel choice, so since we have the knife designer (how often do you get to ask the designer of a product questions?) and some very knowledgeable members let's focus on that. Personally, I will not be in a position to buy a K2 but the thought's and insights everyone in this community brings interests me greatly.

So, I'm just curious, with Cliff, Jim and Mastiff receiving a sample of this knife each from Sal, what type of testing they will put them under? Will all three of you be able to put the knives under rigorous testing or is there a limit to what Sal will let you do to them (are you allowed to re-profile etc)?

Also I was wondering if all three testers could come to an agreement to make at least 1 or 2 similar tests. Cliff writes a lot about testing in a scientific way and it would be interesting to see how the 10v performs in the same test by 3 different people.

Just an afterthought, when the tests are over, how about auctioning the knives for charity :)

[tvenuto]

Just look at how often even native English speakers mix up things like grain size vs carbide size or talk about steel molecules, etc.

Indeed, there are at least three threads where the carburizing vs carbidizing discussion sounds like the "Who's on first" joke.

[Cliff Stamp]

... would love to try some 10v but in a smaller package.

The Spyderco Delica in SuperBlue with that very thin cross section and distal taper, imagine that in 10V. The only real concern would be the point geometry because of the snapping issue if people didn't clearly realize what the steel was designed to do. In a small sprint run maybe or ideally with a clad.

[Cliff Stamp]

Also I was wondering if all three testers could come to an agreement to make at least 1 or 2 similar tests.

Within reason, if it is practical, I rarely refuse any check someone wants to see. The only times are when it would be very costly or impractical for me to do. This doesn't mean they are not valid questions, in many cases they are, however I would hope it would be reasonable to realize I am not going to buy a large bulk of random material to cut up for a specific check - "Hey, how does that cut [insert some type of very cut resistant commercial fishing line]?" That is a great question, expensive to answer though.

[Wanimator]

Cliff, how expensive is this said fishing line? I'm just curious, considering your getting quite a few feet of it the price should be justified.

[Johnnie1801]

Without knowing what Mastiff and Jim have planned, how about you all do a similar cardboard test? Cardboard can be had for free from most supermarkets. It might not be the most scientific of tests but it will give us an idea about the edge retention and performance of the 10v.

The fact is, it's not everyday we have 3 different people with different idea's testing the same knife and it will be interesting to see at the end if they come to the same conclusions.

[sal]

Actually the samples going out are 4, not 3. I've added Phil Wilson to the list. (Now that he's chosen to join the discussion) In my mind, and I'm sure also in the minds of the recipients, they are not "free knives". The discussion is about a very uinque model that is a departure for us and we'd like to get discussion on the model. That includes design, materials, function or anything else that proves to be interesting about the model. Also a bonus that the designer is involved. Something we all like to see. I've been badgering Cliff to design a "Spyderco" model for a while (Then we can question him). :p

I have been working with Joe (Mastiff), Phil, Cliff and Jim for a long time and I trust they will be honest and knowledgable in their testing. It is also how we refine and improve our pieces.

It is unfortunate that we have a personality rift involved in the discussion, it is my hope and goal to get it sorted so that we all may enjoy the discussion of the Farid / Spyderco creation. I don't think that anyone is trying to hurt anyone here. I believe that we as a group are above that. Perhaps we are being too sensitive and it's time to bury the hatchet.

Johnnie,

I place no restrictions on these guys. I remember many years ago when Cliff took one of our knives to destruction. He discovered that our knives were very well made and that's how he began to take notice of our company. Jim broke one of our knives a while back. Created a big "Hey Rube" on the forums for a while, but we all learned.

Hey working edge,

I too had thought about a smaller K2 that would still incorporate some of the interesting features.

sal

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, how expensive is this said fishing line?

They can easily exceed $10 a foot, I have to do multiple runs and that means the cost of the rope is much more than the cost of the knife. Plus most of them are synthetics and thus you are creating a lot of garbage. I would not consider myself to be some kind of extreme hippy, but I am adverse to just buying a bunch of material which won't naturally degrade in that manner. I do cut up synthetics on occasion as I have friends who give me lines which are heavily damaged and have to be replaced as they are going to go to the dump anyway in that case.

... how about you all do a similar cardboard test?

I do a stock cardboard run as part of a base set of checks : http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/cardboard.html" target="_blank . That table is really outdated, I need to update it with the TCE statistics. I also do 3/8" hemp runs and usually something very abrasive/demanding like carpet, used rope.

If there is an edge bevel/finish that anyone is curious about I can very likely replicate that as I have a decent collection of stones and a WE with a full diamond set.