Can we talk about seeeling? w/smoth steels

[landromus]

Particularly with smooth steels.

Someone recently mentioned that a particular steel responds well to a smooth steel.
I guess I could have been too critical of the possible benefits. To me it looked like - trying to milk a bit of life out of a folded stressed edge. My simpleton view was to simply get rid of the stressed metal and get down to the good stuff.

Please straighten me out!

[chuck_roxas45]

Particularly with smooth steels.

Someone recently mentioned that a particular steel responds well to a smooth steel.
I guess I could have been too critical of the possible benefits. To me it looked like - trying to milk a bit of life out of a folded stressed edge. My simpleton view was to simply get rid of the stressed metal and get down to the good stuff.

Please straighten me out!

I'm with you. I'd probably just steel if I was in the middle of work but I'd get rid of the weak steel ASAP.

[JD Spydo]

Thanks for bringing up this thread :) Just recently I started a thread over at the "OFF TOPIC" part of the forum about sharpening steels. And strangely enough I didn't get hardly any hits on it at all?? I even covered and spoke of the "smooth steels" you made mention of. I own 2 of the high quality German made "F. Dick" models that are used widely by top notch restuarants, 4 star chefs, and the meat cutting industry. They didn't even talk about the very popular diamond impregnated models either.

I mainly use my "F. Dick Poliron" model which is the high end smooth steel. It does a great job of aligning the edge on an already sharp blade. I do believe that it does a burnishing effect on really good cutery steels.

I also have an "F. Dick MULTICUT" steel that has all different types of furrows and grooves that actually do abrade and burnish the edge to a degree and will restore a great edge that is already well profiled and beveled.

I find that Friederich Dick of Germany is truly the best producer of sharpening steels period that I've found up till now.

There is however a new generation of sharpening steels that have hit the market in the past 5 to 7 years are the diamond impregated steels ( F. Dick even has one), Ceramic steels ( getting really popular even with restuarant workers and meat cutters) and metal steels with all kinds of patterns on them.

Now I don't find them very useful on folders but I do like them for kitchen blades and fixed blades in general. There are a couple of Swiss made brands that are decent and there is one American Brand that is useful. But other than that you don't hear much about steels and their role in keeping sharp blades maintained.

[Cliff Stamp]

Someone recently mentioned that a particular steel responds well to a smooth steel.

I noted recently in the MBS-26 vs VG-10 thread that in general lower carbide steels will respond better to smooth steels (and strops and any other aligning process).

... to simply get rid of the stressed metal and get down to the good stuff.

In general, smooth steels are most commonly used in kitchens where :

-the edge is under very low stress in general
-it is very easy to steel as it is hanging right next to you
-you don't want any abrasive left on the edge
-the knives tend to be low carbide and very soft
-the sharpness requirement is only moderate

Note that you don't see steeling a lot in Japanese kitchens which are often very different especially in regards to the last two aspects and many people warn that steeling the type of knives they use can often lead to damage, which is mainly a manner of too much force.

John Juranitch was/is likely one of the strongest proponents of steeling with a smooth steel and argued that very light steeling would improve the finish of even fine hones and he built and sold many devices for steeling which were strongly promoted off of the food preparation industry.

[Cliff Stamp]

There is however a new generation of sharpening steels that have hit the market in the past 5 to 7 years are the diamond impregated steels ( F. Dick even has one), Ceramic steels ( getting really popular even with restuarant workers and meat cutters) and metal steels with all kinds of patterns on them.

A diamond and ceramic rod are no different than a diamond and ceramic benchstone essentially in how they work, they are all abrasive based. A smooth steel, often in steel, nitrided coated or glass, works by doing something very different, and a ribbed steel is basically a smooth steel which generates higher pressures under a given force and will act like a fine file under heavy force. While it is common to lump all of them together as "steels" it tends to confuse the issue because they are acting in very different ways and produce very different edges.

[Jazz]

Steels with abrading materials on them aren't steels, in my opinion. They're sharpeners. Anyway, I work in a kitchen, and use steels every day. When you use your knife, the edge slowly folds over. That's a lot of the dullness that happens. Some is chipping and wearing away, but until too much of that happens, I run the blade across a steel, backwards, like stropping - hard at first, then getting lighter. It simply straightens the edge. I can use my good quality chef's knife for a year without touching it to a stone, just by steeling after every use. If you let it get too rolled, you have to use a stone, so the key is don't let it. Yes, I use the stones for my Spydies too. They just don't need it that often, except my Salt 1 I use at work. Cuts tons of cardboard, so needs a lot of steeling and occasional stoning and stropping on cardboard. I hope this helps. I'm sure Cliff'll be against steels , but they're around for good reason.

[JD Spydo]

A diamond and ceramic rod are no different than a diamond and ceramic benchstone essentially in how they work, they are all abrasive based. A smooth steel, often in steel, nitrided coated or glass, works by doing something very different, and a ribbed steel is basically a smooth steel which generates higher pressures under a given force and will act like a fine file under heavy force. While it is common to lump all of them together as "steels" it tends to confuse the issue because they are acting in very different ways and produce very different edges.

This is really interesting to me in two ways: One it makes me wonder if the older butcher steels even made a difference at all? Two with these modern blade steels which are much harder and have several properties completely apart from the knives of old ( carbon steel) >> so it makes me wonder if any sharpening steel (smooth or otherwise) really contributes much at all?

However I have used my Temp 1 quite a bit lately preparing food and after cleaning it I've taken my F. Dick Poliron (smooth steel) to run up and down the edge and it honestly does seem to have some effect. But on the other hand is it even enough for the trouble a guy goes through? Cliff and some of the other guys really do raise some questions.

Now there was a term that was thrown around in the machine shop I used to work at>> that term was called "burnishing">> which makes me wonder if the smooth steels do a burnishing effect on an edge?

But I have had some positive results on my Temp 1 which has VG-10 steel by the way>> or does that even factor in?

This is an interesting discussion and it makes me wonder if the newer blade steels even need or benefit from steeling at all?

[rodloos]

I always wondered how H1 would respond to a steel. Since it is "work hardened" does the hardness improve as the edge is aligned when used with a steel? Only when used rapidly enough to generate some heat as well?

Seems like I have read so many conflicting opinions on H1's work-hardening properties.

[Cliff Stamp]

This is really interesting to me in two ways: One it makes me wonder if the older butcher steels even made a difference at all?

It depends on how they are used, they are very commonly used here.

Fisherman use those grooves steels to sharpen their fillet knives which are generally fairly soft. They use a lot of force and the butchers steel acts like a fine file and it will keep a blade sharp for a long time. In general at some point the edge gets so heavy with the secondary filed edge that it takes too long to steel it back to sharp and the entire edge is reset with a stone and then it is back to steeling.

.. I've taken my F. Dick Poliron (smooth steel) to run up and down the edge and it honestly does seem to have some effect.

If you use it lightly as a finishing step and you see a result then you have to ask yourself was the knife properly sharpened before that step. Take a knife which has a true hair whittling edge and see if you can improve it with a smooth steel and especially not introduce a side bias in the attempt to do so.

Now there was a term that was thrown around in the machine shop I used to work at>> that term was called "burnishing">> which makes me wonder if the smooth steels do a burnishing effect on an edge?

That is what the smooth ones do, and what the grooves ones will do if used light.

If you want to see what they do obviously then look at how a cabinet scraper is sharpened. The final step is to take a smooth rod and roll it along the edge with enough force to intentionally make a small lip/hook which is what becomes the cutting edge for the scraping.

This is an interesting discussion and it makes me wonder if the newer blade steels even need or benefit from steeling at all?

As steels get higher in carbide volume then using a smooth steel on them starts to make less sense because you will not see the benefits of a high carbide steel but you still get all the drawbacks.

[Holland]

Thanks all for the replies, very informative thread

[PayneTrain]

I use steels regularly at work, mostly the "ribbed" kind. It's surprising what they can do to the cheaper steel that you find on Victorinox, Dexter Russell, Greban, etc. But it's only steel, and some of our Spydercos' steels are harder and can and will damage the butcher's steel, while not really gaining anything from it. On simple, relatively soft steels that aren't loaded with carbides, a steel can really be your friend and is kinda fun to use. But my pocket knives and my two personal food knives will only ever see stones and a strop when I finally get around to making one.

[JD Spydo]

I use steels regularly at work, mostly the "ribbed" kind. It's surprising what they can do to the cheaper steel that you find on Victorinox, Dexter Russell, Greban, etc. But it's only steel, and some of our Spydercos' steels are harder and can and will damage the butcher's steel, while not really gaining anything from it. On simple, relatively soft steels that aren't loaded with carbides, a steel can really be your friend and is kinda fun to use. But my pocket knives and my two personal food knives will only ever see stones and a strop when I finally get around to making one.

I know what you're talking about PT because I used to have one of those Dexter Russell steels myself. But I have never ever even put a scratch on my F. Dick Poliron ( smooth sharpening steel). Whatever that thing is coated with is some incredibly hard stuff.

I also hear you on your second concern because I never use any of my folders hardly at all on a steel. Whatever F. Dick used on their smooth Poliron steel is almost as hard as Tungsten Carbide.

Also in regard to what Cliff said about John Juranitch I still have one of those folding smooth steels that used to come in his kits from Razor Edge Systems out of Ely, Minnesota USA. Most of what I've learned initially about sharpening I got from his book "The Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening" by John Juranitch. That book did give you a lot of solid fundamentals in the skill of sharpening. I was aquainted with Razor Edge Systems before I really got into Spyderco's great sharpening tools. He mainly preached that smooth steels were pretty much the only ones that really had anything to contribute to a razor sharp edge.

I'm beginning to believe that as hard as some of these newer blade steels are that an ultra-fine stone is really what you need for finishing an edge. I've yet to get any of the Shapton stones but I've been told that their ultra-fine stones do a great job of finishing an edge.

[Evil D]

A steel is to a chef, as a strop is to a barber. They're specialized tools used to maintain specialized blades. Both can be replaced by a better stone for most all other blade types and uses.

[JD Spydo]

I always wondered how H1 would respond to a steel. Since it is "work hardened" does the hardness improve as the edge is aligned when used with a steel? Only when used rapidly enough to generate some heat as well?

Seems like I have read so many conflicting opinions on H1's work-hardening properties.

I've kind of wondered about that myself. Because one of the F. Dick steels I have is called the "F. Dick Multicut" steel and it has fluted edges and furrowed edges that do seem to do a little more than realigning. I've often wondered about the term "Burnishing" because I've heard that is a term used concerning metal against metal that is harder. I have had some decent results with my F. Dick Multicut and my smooth F. Dick Poliron both.

I was told that is the reason that H-1 makes the best Spyderedged blades is because of it's work hardened properties and the grinding process they use to create the serrations essentially work hardens it. You've got me wondering and I'm going to give it a try on one of my plain edged Hawkbills I have with H-1. I think I'll try the smooth one first and see what happens. I wonder what the term "work hardened" entails? Because you could really create some friction even with a smooth sharpening steel.

I would think that metal against metal might do well with H-1. I do wish someone would chime in on that one for sure. That might be a thread all it's own.

[Cliff Stamp]

I would think that metal against metal might do well with H-1. I do wish someone would chime in on that one for sure. That might be a thread all it's own.

When Sal first made the post about H1 and how the relative performance of the serrated / plain edges was higher in H1 than other steels and how that lead to a hardness check, people have jumped from that to sharpening and use can produce this effect. Sal has clarified on more than one occasion that they do not claim that happens.

In general, people often claim that steeling an edge will harden it and make it stronger, improve edge retention, etc. however when you look at the work done to justify this claim it doesn't support it. Often what you have is something like a coarse edge off of a stone which is not well sharpened compared to the same edge steeled. This isn't showing the steeling specifically it is just showing a sharper edge which is more polished. And even in that case there is no bias control used.

Note that when you steel an edge you are creating a fault line similar to a fold in a piece of paper. This fold does not make the paper stronger in the fold direction, in fact it makes it easier to fold there and less resilient. Similar if you steel an edge it does get better at resisting lateral loading it gets worse.

But of course if you use a dull knife vs one with a steeled edge then the latter does better, but what you want to do is actually compare an edge sharpened properly off of a high grit stone to the same edge then steel and see how that does in repeated work with some method to control bias. If the steeled edge does better there then you have the start of an argument.

--

All of this aside, I use smooth steels and butchers steels from time to time for various reasons, I even carry the Razor-Edge folding steel with me and it is often enough to get friends knives back enough to do work with in some kind of sensible manner when you don't have time to break out the WE or even the CBN rods.

[sal]

I have a set of John Juranich's smooth steels that I use with the Sharpmaker. I lay the steels in the groove of the ceramic rod and run the edge down the smooth steels just like I do on the ceramic. I'd like them to be a tad longer, but they work fine.

sal