Bob & Sal
Thanks so much for the update. The Warrior line of knives carries great sentimentality for me as it was the doorway into training for me and the wonderful people I've met through it.
Bob, I really miss seeing you at your table at the OKCA shows. You and Bob2 always had such a great table full of knives.
Sal, I'm so happy to be able to see you and Eric there each year. You always have a great table full of knives. Lookin' to see the two of you this April.
By the by, my first "tactical" folder was a serrated Endura with the integral clip. Still have it, along with about fifty or so other Spydies.
Pygmy Warrior Update T&E
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Greg Walker
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Bob,
Nice eval and great photos :)
I appreciated your inclusion of the Simonich design / photos. Rob was a wonderful man and a true patriot. While I was in Kuwait with my SF company during the ramp up for Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2002 he sent 7-8 of his best knives over for distribution to our teams. As I recall Spyderco did, as well, as did Ernie Emerson and several other specialty cutlery providers. You can never do wrong giving due credit and honor to a man like Rob Simonich in whatever forum provides the opportunity.
Recently I enjoyed talking with Randy Wanner. We chatted about a number of things to include the origin of the Warrior. I asked Randy to dig way back into his memory as to the actual role Mike Echanis played in its conceptualization. He kindly did so.
As Randy recalls both Echanis and Chuck Sanders were in LA working with Randy on the photography and text of Mike's books. The two had brought "a sackfful of combat knives" down with them and over the course of the week they spent together the three discussed the pros and cons of each knife. Then they began working on what attributes a better mousetrap, if you will, would present.
Randy offered that toward the end of the week (they were all staying in the same hotel) he began drawing up possible designs reflecting their combined input. When the third drawing was made and looked over by MDE and Chuck, Mike said "That's the one." That drawing would become the first hand ground prototype of the Warrior, unsharpened and made from a scrap of steel picked up off the shop's floor.
As you already know - but for the sake of others that may not -after Mike's passing both you and Randy approached the Echanis Family about their possible endorsement of a memorial knife bearing Mike's name. Randy would refer to the "Echanis Warrior Knife" only one time and that was in an article he wrote for Soldier of Fortune back in 1980, I believe. The family chose not to endorse the project. This, essentially, because they were still very much mourning Mike and Chuck's deaths.
Very respectfully the knife went on to become known simply as "The Warrior".
However, it is appropriate to now know - from Randy Wanner who was so close to MDE and Chuck - the actual involvement of both during the earliest days of the knife's creative beginnings.
My sincere thanks to Randy for taking the time and making the effort to recall what were clearly good but still sad memories of his friends and brothers.
Finally, the included link will take the interested reader to the recent story in Mike and Chuck's hometown newspaper about MDE's 2013 induction into the Black Belt Hall of Fame. Nearly 36 years after his passing, Michael D Echanis has finally been properly acknowledged and honored in his hometown for his wartime service and accomplishments in the martial arts - http://www.argusobserver.com/news/black ... f887a.html
The Pigmy Warrior is a great next step in the design and evolution of this truly American close quarters combat weapon.
A sincere "Thank you" to you and Sal and those at Spyderco who have made it a reality :spyder:
Nice eval and great photos :)
I appreciated your inclusion of the Simonich design / photos. Rob was a wonderful man and a true patriot. While I was in Kuwait with my SF company during the ramp up for Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2002 he sent 7-8 of his best knives over for distribution to our teams. As I recall Spyderco did, as well, as did Ernie Emerson and several other specialty cutlery providers. You can never do wrong giving due credit and honor to a man like Rob Simonich in whatever forum provides the opportunity.
Recently I enjoyed talking with Randy Wanner. We chatted about a number of things to include the origin of the Warrior. I asked Randy to dig way back into his memory as to the actual role Mike Echanis played in its conceptualization. He kindly did so.
As Randy recalls both Echanis and Chuck Sanders were in LA working with Randy on the photography and text of Mike's books. The two had brought "a sackfful of combat knives" down with them and over the course of the week they spent together the three discussed the pros and cons of each knife. Then they began working on what attributes a better mousetrap, if you will, would present.
Randy offered that toward the end of the week (they were all staying in the same hotel) he began drawing up possible designs reflecting their combined input. When the third drawing was made and looked over by MDE and Chuck, Mike said "That's the one." That drawing would become the first hand ground prototype of the Warrior, unsharpened and made from a scrap of steel picked up off the shop's floor.
As you already know - but for the sake of others that may not -after Mike's passing both you and Randy approached the Echanis Family about their possible endorsement of a memorial knife bearing Mike's name. Randy would refer to the "Echanis Warrior Knife" only one time and that was in an article he wrote for Soldier of Fortune back in 1980, I believe. The family chose not to endorse the project. This, essentially, because they were still very much mourning Mike and Chuck's deaths.
Very respectfully the knife went on to become known simply as "The Warrior".
However, it is appropriate to now know - from Randy Wanner who was so close to MDE and Chuck - the actual involvement of both during the earliest days of the knife's creative beginnings.
My sincere thanks to Randy for taking the time and making the effort to recall what were clearly good but still sad memories of his friends and brothers.
Finally, the included link will take the interested reader to the recent story in Mike and Chuck's hometown newspaper about MDE's 2013 induction into the Black Belt Hall of Fame. Nearly 36 years after his passing, Michael D Echanis has finally been properly acknowledged and honored in his hometown for his wartime service and accomplishments in the martial arts - http://www.argusobserver.com/news/black ... f887a.html
The Pigmy Warrior is a great next step in the design and evolution of this truly American close quarters combat weapon.
A sincere "Thank you" to you and Sal and those at Spyderco who have made it a reality :spyder:
GW
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Liquid Cobra
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What an incredible story. Thank you for sharing.
Most recently acquired: Military 2, Paramilitary 2 Tanto x2, YoJUMBO, Swayback, Siren, DLC Yojimbo 2, Native Chief, Shaman S90V, Para 3 LW, Ikuchi, UKPK, Smock, SUBVERT, Amalgam, Para 3 CTS-XHP, Kapara, Paramilitary 2 M390
Grail Paramilitary 2 M390 X 2! ACHIEVED!!
For more of my pictures see my Instagram account.
@liquid_cobra
Grail Paramilitary 2 M390 X 2! ACHIEVED!!
For more of my pictures see my Instagram account.
@liquid_cobra
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Greg Walker
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- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
For those who may not have seen such a demonstration (knife edge to free-hanging meat) please refer to the included link - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +meat&sm=3
Paul Vunak, whom I met, interviewed and trained with during my tenure as chief editor of Full Contact magazine, introduced this live blade demonstration in his Panther Productions knife combatives video now many years ago.
Its intent was to demonstrate the reality of full power slashes against flesh. I would note ANY sharp knife will create such wounds which include the severing of muscle tissue, veins, arteries, nerve points and centers as well as the creation of life threatening shock.
The incorporation of either a well designed serration (as I attributed Spyderco with many, many times in both Fighting Knives and Full Contact magazines) or flesh aggressive "sawtooth" feature (as is present on all the Warrior/Hobbit/Pocket Hobbit and now, apparently, Pigmy models, versions and variations) will indeed increase wound channel and overall tissue / blood flow / nerve destruction damage significantly. :spyder:
Paul Vunak, whom I met, interviewed and trained with during my tenure as chief editor of Full Contact magazine, introduced this live blade demonstration in his Panther Productions knife combatives video now many years ago.
Its intent was to demonstrate the reality of full power slashes against flesh. I would note ANY sharp knife will create such wounds which include the severing of muscle tissue, veins, arteries, nerve points and centers as well as the creation of life threatening shock.
The incorporation of either a well designed serration (as I attributed Spyderco with many, many times in both Fighting Knives and Full Contact magazines) or flesh aggressive "sawtooth" feature (as is present on all the Warrior/Hobbit/Pocket Hobbit and now, apparently, Pigmy models, versions and variations) will indeed increase wound channel and overall tissue / blood flow / nerve destruction damage significantly. :spyder:
GW
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
This is another and more recent example of wound creation using a chunk of meat and in this case, a Kerambit.
https://youtu.be/yXJ5atjx4M0
I don't know that I'd be using a real "uke" to hold the test medium, however :eek:
Can you imagine if he'd miscalculated and done same damage to the live hand or forearm?
Again, a well sharpened knife with the addition of focused application (the Kerambit is a weapon, not a filet or general purpose folder) will only enhance "damage done".
https://youtu.be/yXJ5atjx4M0
I don't know that I'd be using a real "uke" to hold the test medium, however :eek:
Can you imagine if he'd miscalculated and done same damage to the live hand or forearm?
Again, a well sharpened knife with the addition of focused application (the Kerambit is a weapon, not a filet or general purpose folder) will only enhance "damage done".
GW
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Greg Walker
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And for both fun and comparison check out this demonstration of the inherit cutting power of a full size and properly designed sword againt a truly impressive test medium (dual free-hanging pig carcasses). If you don't wish to watch the entire clip move the cursor to the 5:01 minute mark - https://youtu.be/8PQiaurIiDM
GW
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Greg Walker
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Greg Walker
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- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
"Stacked" grip panels nice feature.
Echoes Walther's very successful performance ergonomics design. This link provides excellent synopsis of why and how enhanced ergonomics result in greater comfort, control and indexing of the weapon. This applies to an edged weapon, as well - http://www.waltherarms.com/performance-design/
My only suggestion is that once the best ergonomic "fit" has been arrived at with the Pygmy Warrior...Lok Tite in place to prevent loosening of the screws and shifting of the spacers/panels.
Bob's thoughts regarding grip strength are interesting although I do not concur.
Edged weapon martial arts systems provide for "defanging the snake". In other words, damage, injure, wound, destroy the hand gripping the weapon.
Once this has been accomplished the weapon becomes useless.
This link does nice job of explaining / demonstrating the concept of defanging the snake. Jeff is senior instructor under Datu Kelly Worden - https://youtu.be/VqF8kemYNuI
Mike Pana's explanation and demonstration of defanging the snake is likewise excellent and reinforces this aspect of defeating "grip strength" by removing the ability to grip - https://youtu.be/aaG2UlkRJDg
His follow on is even more objective / clear on this concept and techniques - https://youtu.be/yKpk6_S6CEY
Finally, this very short clip featuring Paul Vunak discusses and demonstrates using a free-hanging slab of lamb both defanging the snake AND the effect of a single slash on flesh. I add this caveat - Bob T is not a fan of Paul Vunak - I am a fan of Paul's very real knowledge base and ability to teach - https://youtu.be/O_UYOqCsr7E
Enjoy!
Echoes Walther's very successful performance ergonomics design. This link provides excellent synopsis of why and how enhanced ergonomics result in greater comfort, control and indexing of the weapon. This applies to an edged weapon, as well - http://www.waltherarms.com/performance-design/
My only suggestion is that once the best ergonomic "fit" has been arrived at with the Pygmy Warrior...Lok Tite in place to prevent loosening of the screws and shifting of the spacers/panels.
Bob's thoughts regarding grip strength are interesting although I do not concur.
Edged weapon martial arts systems provide for "defanging the snake". In other words, damage, injure, wound, destroy the hand gripping the weapon.
Once this has been accomplished the weapon becomes useless.
This link does nice job of explaining / demonstrating the concept of defanging the snake. Jeff is senior instructor under Datu Kelly Worden - https://youtu.be/VqF8kemYNuI
Mike Pana's explanation and demonstration of defanging the snake is likewise excellent and reinforces this aspect of defeating "grip strength" by removing the ability to grip - https://youtu.be/aaG2UlkRJDg
His follow on is even more objective / clear on this concept and techniques - https://youtu.be/yKpk6_S6CEY
Finally, this very short clip featuring Paul Vunak discusses and demonstrates using a free-hanging slab of lamb both defanging the snake AND the effect of a single slash on flesh. I add this caveat - Bob T is not a fan of Paul Vunak - I am a fan of Paul's very real knowledge base and ability to teach - https://youtu.be/O_UYOqCsr7E
Enjoy!
GW
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Greg Walker
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Randy Wanner, one of the finest real world martial artists I know, and Bob Taylor made a very comprehensive video training program some years ago.
In this clip Randy (in blue shirt) demonstrates defeating "grip strength" or defanging the snake using an empty hand series of techniques involving blocks, joint locks and joint breaks - https://youtu.be/vIqhMwyAs6c using Bob T (maroon shirt) as his demonstrator.
Randy, of course, is the original design source of the Warrior knife along with Mike Echanis and Chuck Sanders.
Randy's discourse on the difference between stick fighting and knife/gun defanging/disarming - priceless information! https://youtu.be/Zmw1CXbqW3k
In this clip Randy (in blue shirt) demonstrates defeating "grip strength" or defanging the snake using an empty hand series of techniques involving blocks, joint locks and joint breaks - https://youtu.be/vIqhMwyAs6c using Bob T (maroon shirt) as his demonstrator.
Randy, of course, is the original design source of the Warrior knife along with Mike Echanis and Chuck Sanders.
Randy's discourse on the difference between stick fighting and knife/gun defanging/disarming - priceless information! https://youtu.be/Zmw1CXbqW3k
GW
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Saw this insightful and reinforcing video clip from Mike Janich regarding defanging the snake, again using empty hand techniques and joint locks.
https://youtu.be/sEFTGoJ-FIs
One will note both Janich and Wanner use a variation of the downward cross block in their instruction.
Datu Kelly Worden, one of the finest teachers and true masters in the martial arts and certainly the knife, shows how swift a knife to knife encounter should be. Again, attacking the knife-gripping arm/hand and "shearing a few fingers" defeats the physical ability to either continue to grip the knife or greatly reduces its effectiveness in doing so -https://youtu.be/dGg2NSxOoUo
Again, training and practice refine understanding and movement / application under duress or stress.
One can buy a Pygmy Warrior, or any knife for that matter, purely for the fun of it if nothing else.
However, the Pygmy Warrior is a pure fighting / CQB blade design and to best utilize it as such we have to possess the mental and physical attributes and skills that allow its features to be best taken advantage of.
https://youtu.be/sEFTGoJ-FIs
One will note both Janich and Wanner use a variation of the downward cross block in their instruction.
Datu Kelly Worden, one of the finest teachers and true masters in the martial arts and certainly the knife, shows how swift a knife to knife encounter should be. Again, attacking the knife-gripping arm/hand and "shearing a few fingers" defeats the physical ability to either continue to grip the knife or greatly reduces its effectiveness in doing so -https://youtu.be/dGg2NSxOoUo
Again, training and practice refine understanding and movement / application under duress or stress.
One can buy a Pygmy Warrior, or any knife for that matter, purely for the fun of it if nothing else.
However, the Pygmy Warrior is a pure fighting / CQB blade design and to best utilize it as such we have to possess the mental and physical attributes and skills that allow its features to be best taken advantage of.
GW
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Mike Sastre
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Any word on an ETA? Should be sometime soon.
Mike
http://www.RiverCitySheaths.com
"Kitchen Kydex" DVD sets available. http://rivercitysheaths.com/dvd.html
http://www.RiverCitySheaths.com
"Kitchen Kydex" DVD sets available. http://rivercitysheaths.com/dvd.html
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Cliff Stamp
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Greg,
I am not sure in which manner the video's were cited, but they don't demonstrate any inherent ability of a kerambit or a "properly made" sword. Meat is one of the simplest things to cut with a knife, those kinds of cuts are not impressive at all to anyone who has cut meat as it offers almost no resistance to a sharpened edge. A simple plan kitchen knife will make the same kind of deep/wide cuts to large pieces of meat and a $5 machete will make extremely large cuts on large piece of meat. If you want graphic evidence you can find pictures on the web of cuts on people with machetes (which are not going to have perfect edges from a jig system).
Now while it may be true that those knives (kerabit) and that Cold Steel swords do have some kind of superior cutting ability, it certainly isn't demonstrated by those types of videos.
I am not sure in which manner the video's were cited, but they don't demonstrate any inherent ability of a kerambit or a "properly made" sword. Meat is one of the simplest things to cut with a knife, those kinds of cuts are not impressive at all to anyone who has cut meat as it offers almost no resistance to a sharpened edge. A simple plan kitchen knife will make the same kind of deep/wide cuts to large pieces of meat and a $5 machete will make extremely large cuts on large piece of meat. If you want graphic evidence you can find pictures on the web of cuts on people with machetes (which are not going to have perfect edges from a jig system).
Now while it may be true that those knives (kerabit) and that Cold Steel swords do have some kind of superior cutting ability, it certainly isn't demonstrated by those types of videos.
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Greg Walker
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Hi, Cliff -
Agreed. My interest was in providing links to such testing / evaluation going back now many, many years with Paul Vunak being one of the first I saw to put in video.
We might agree the term "demonstration" is a more accurate / appropriate one?
And you are spot on regarding cutting / slashing ability of a good $5 machete :D
Fact it more folks cut themselves (and maybe, perhaps but in far few numbers - at least here in the States, I imagine) with their $21 folder or $35 fixed blade.
I venture to say if you were to "borrow" a reasonable to very good steak knife from Outback and slam a free hanging chuck of pork you'd get pretty impressive results :)
I have a new Koncept Knives "Back Alley Fighter" I picked up from the good folks (and my dear friends) at Tactical Tailor yesterday. $135 to include carry pouch, clip, molly straps and clip, mini tool kit for upkeep, extra spacers - the works. Beautifully made knife from Vince (who used to work for Spyderco and then Tim Wegner at BladeTech. Vince passed away of cancer about a week ago - a good man) - and it is a pure "puncher" penetraion wise with a more than fair slashing capability.
In short, any knife will do if it is at least sharp...and one has the Intent to use it for whatever reason or task.
Agreed. My interest was in providing links to such testing / evaluation going back now many, many years with Paul Vunak being one of the first I saw to put in video.
We might agree the term "demonstration" is a more accurate / appropriate one?
And you are spot on regarding cutting / slashing ability of a good $5 machete :D
Fact it more folks cut themselves (and maybe, perhaps but in far few numbers - at least here in the States, I imagine) with their $21 folder or $35 fixed blade.
I venture to say if you were to "borrow" a reasonable to very good steak knife from Outback and slam a free hanging chuck of pork you'd get pretty impressive results :)
I have a new Koncept Knives "Back Alley Fighter" I picked up from the good folks (and my dear friends) at Tactical Tailor yesterday. $135 to include carry pouch, clip, molly straps and clip, mini tool kit for upkeep, extra spacers - the works. Beautifully made knife from Vince (who used to work for Spyderco and then Tim Wegner at BladeTech. Vince passed away of cancer about a week ago - a good man) - and it is a pure "puncher" penetraion wise with a more than fair slashing capability.
In short, any knife will do if it is at least sharp...and one has the Intent to use it for whatever reason or task.
GW